Consensual parenting
Posted
April 25, 2009 at
12:02 pm by
Jessica
Photo by Sean Dreilinger
The gist of it is this: Parents make a conscious decision to give their children equal say and representation in how they’re raised, their discipline (if any) and major family decisions giving them complete freedom to choose whatever they want to do in any situation, barring life threatening situations (at least I hope so as this isn’t addressed in the article). Only difference with this new press — it’s been given a new name, “consensual parenting”. Formally such movements were called everything from child centered parenting, attachment parenting or “gentle discipline”.
“When parents put themselves in the role as authorities, they may believe they are doing it ‘for the child’s good,’ ” writes one of the movement’s co-founders, Anna Brown, “but they could be missing an opportunity to have more connected relationships with their children.”
Lindsay Hollett of Nanaimo, B.C., says that she began to snap less with her husband, Craig, and her 18-month-old daughter, Kahlan, after she adopted the consensual-living mindset about a year ago.
Her days became more relaxed when she focused more on Kahlan’s needs, she says. If she had a doctor’s appointment but her daughter was feeling grumpy, for example, Ms. Hollett would not force Kahlan to wait with her to see the doctor. Instead, Ms. Hollett might cancel the appointment or arrange alternative child care, she says.
So, basically, this is a parenting method whereby no boundaries or limits are placed on ones own children.
My question is — what’s the point of even being a parent? Doesn’t this higher form of enlightened parenting render parents role obsolete? Couldn’t you just as easily send them to state run institution to be raised if your only duty as a parent is to make sure your kid doesn’t kill themselves?
When Kiernen strikes another child, Ms. Keller asks him what he’s feeling and whether he’d like to express his anger or frustration in another way, such as using words or hitting a pillow.
She tells him it’s not okay to hit others, but she and her husband, Josh, do not force Kiernen to say he’s sorry. “If he’s going to apologize, we want it to be authentic,” Ms. Keller says.
My opinion on this is that these children are going to grow up completely anti-social and lacking any real coping mechanisms and boundaries. And that affects everybody. In my opinion this fosters as much damage on a child than what the opposite does, which is parenting by control and humiliation. I also think these parents lack child rearing skills themselves.
I have been a victim of some of this type of parenting which has haunted me my entire life. My mother was completely submissive and that’s not what I needed as a child. I didn’t appreciate raising myself and while I had to find my own coping mechanisms in life, they have not come without a dire cost and consequence as a deficit in my self esteem and my ability to relate to other people.
Plus, it’s just more work to actually work with a child and teach him rather than let him them do whatever he wants. This labeling only allows gives you an excuse to tell your friends, family and neighbors that you’re evoking this whole new parenting approach instead of taking the time and effort required to raise your children the right way.
Tags: attachment parenting, behavior issues, child centered, consensual living, parenting methods, submissive parenting |
27 Responses to “Consensual parenting”
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1. mully
April 25, 2009 @ 12:50 pm
Good God! What idiot came up with this crap?
Children NEED boundaries. They NEED to know that someone is in charge. They NEED examples set on how to behave in any given situation. They NEED to learn cause and effect..that for every action, there is a reaction. They also need to learn that perfection is not attainable and shouldnt be expected. They need to know that its ok to display anger but how to effectively deal with such a powerful emotion.
They NEED parents to show them the way.
This bullshit new way of parenting is more of the liberal crap thats being shoved down our throats in so many areas today. Whats wrong with people in society today doesnt go back to caring, concerned parents who set standards and perhaps included some tough love in those standards, it more goes back to people who were raised by lazy parents who never made their children accountable for anything they ever did and when the chance came to teach a lesson, those same parents were too busy or too unconcerned to give a damn.
When I was raising my children, there were rules. Those rules were expected to be obeyed and if they werent, there was a consequence. It wasnt Hitler-esque, they werent banned to Gitmo for all time, but they DID know to expect some level of punishment. At the same time, there was alot of time for “connected relationships” as Ms. Brown calls it.
Because my kids knew that they had 2 parents who they COULD look to for guidance and because they knew they had 2 parents who didnt put up with alot of nonsense, they, in turn, didnt push the envelope all that often. The result of that: we did have those connected relationships and the proof of that is that now, in their adult lives, my kids are mine and my husbands best friends and they consider us, theirs.
We share our lives. We have mutual respect for each other and while Im not naive enough to think I have turned out 3 perfect adults, my kids are all productive, caring human beings who work hard everyday to make a better life for themselves and their children.
Im not sure what Ms.Brown thinks needs to be fixed here. The old adage “if it aint broke, it dont need fixin” is very accurate here. For centuries, parents have raised children with pretty much the same ethics. If the world has run amuck, perhaps we need to look at the lack of God in people’s lives or whatever standard of morality you live by and its a sure bet that there are too many parents NOT bothering to bother at all.
Ms. Brown sounds as tho shes possibly smoked one too many funny cigarettes if you ask me.
2. cin
April 25, 2009 @ 1:45 pm
That is the most retarded load of crap I have ever heard. And yes I said retarded, political correctness be damned. It is one of my favorite words. Not because I am making fun of people or conditions the way some people blabber on and protest against, but because by definition it describes things like this CONSENSUAL PARENTING to the T!
I find that parenting attitude very limited in intellectual development AND offensive.
So you want to involve your kids in decision making, give them confidence and skills to survive in the big bad world. SUPER! But the ultimate decisions must come down to the parents. Are you KIDDING me she changes her appointments if her kids doesn’t feel like going?! Here’s the problem consensual folks… your 18 month old does not have a fully developed brain yet! She is not in possession of reason and logic yet. They have no idea how to prioritize the big picture… or even what it is for that matter. So why in the world would it be a good thing to entrust the family and household decisions to them?!
THOSE people need to grow up. They MIGHT be retarded, as in not intellectually developed, and need to have THEIR decision making privileges evaluated.
Mully, you are my kindred sister. Long in post and short in bullshit tolerance. Plus there’s that Adam Lambert thing
3. mully
April 25, 2009 @ 2:19 pm
Cin: No offense taken in your use of the word “retarded”. As the parent of a Down Syndrome adult, Ive often questioned why people get so bent out of shape because of that word. Lets face it. Shannon IS “retarded” if you take the literal, dictionary description of the word.
The problem with political correctness is that it gets caught up in people’s viewpoints and/or their assumption of what one might mean by the use of a word or a phrase.
While my daughter may be retarded, in that she learns slower or takes longer to do something, she is, by no means, an idiot. I quite like her life. Wish mine were as simple.
BTW Cin: Shannon thinks Adam’s HOT!
4. cin
April 25, 2009 @ 3:10 pm
Sounds like my kind of girl! Tell her she has to fight me for him, though!
You know, it’s interesting… I am thinking that it is easy for me to think, “so what if she has Downs, so what if he has Asberger’s”. Because to me these kids are so amazing. My son’s buddy is over right now to spend the night. He has Asberger’s. I loved him from the moment I met him: he was assigned to my group at a field trip a couple years ago. I didn’t know about his Asberger’s then and I remember saying to my son, “That Michael is one cool kid.” He was mature and so advanced in his appreciation for the Henry Ford museum and I enjoyed his conversation while the other kids in my group ran around and giggled!
The 5 year old across the street has Asberger’s. He is the most delightful and engaging kid in the neighborhood. He runs down to our house and bangs on the door, gives my husband some random NASCAR updates, says “see ya” then turns around and runs home. The two of them have sat out in the driveway for hours talking and quizzing each other. My hubby HATES the neighborhood kids. He is the cranky GET OFF MY LAWN guy. But he loves John. And it’s not because he is special or he feels sorry for him. We genuinely enjoy his company. Unlike all the other heathens running through our landscaping and getting into stuff in the garage. (don’t get me started)
But then I think about my own son and think about all the challenges and prejudice he meets on a daily basis just over ADHD, his size, and broken past. I can only imagine that others have a tougher time keeping it all together and staying positive sometimes. So I would feel bad if someone misunderstood our attitude as being flip. We don’t take anything lightly, we just don’t allow words to have more power than they should. The kids call my son “shrimp” and “junior mint”. We made those part of our daily vocabulary to desensitize him to the sting. We make reference to the “short bus”" and him being a “SPED” so that he is in on the joke when kids at school poke fun at him for having a couple of “special” classes.
Some may not think it’s the right way to deal with things, but it works for us. And it distracts me from saying to him, “Fuck ‘em” which is what I’d really like to do! That probably wouldn’t win me any parenting points from my peers either!
5. mully
April 25, 2009 @ 4:01 pm
You know Cin, a looooong time ago when Shannon was born and we were young and scared and not sure what to do or where to turn, the overwhelming, one thing that we KNEW we had to do for Shannon…was to treat her as normally as possible. We adopted the “love me, love my dog” attitude which meant simply that where we went, she went and what we did, she did. She wasnt hidden away, she was thrust into her life.
We were lucky. Shannon wasnt born in the horrible times when babies like her were simply put away, left to rot in some horrid institution with no love, no chance for anything vaguely resembling human life.
Shes never been given a “pass” simply because she’s slower. Shes been expected to keep up with her brothers and sister when it came to chores and duties around the house. When Saturday morning came around, cleaning day in our house, Shannon had her list just like everyone else. She tried to pull the “I cant, Im retarded” trick with us which only made us laugh and more determined that she had to try.
The result is someone who has learned responsibility and the meaning of work and satisfaction over a job well done.
I look around at the spoiled, self involved, unhappy young adults in our community and I think to myself that these are people who probably had a multitude of opportunities, who had the looks, the grades the great college and doting parents who gave them everything except the something they needed to be happy and fulfilled. Pride in themselves and pride in what they do.
Sometimes I wonder whos really the retarded one.
6. lori@teach-through-love.com
April 26, 2009 @ 9:05 pm
Wow.
Hello Jessica,
With all due respect and complete empathy for your “submissive” mother, your understanding of this parenting paradigm is limited at best and completely inaccurate at worst.
Consensual parenting, (though that’s a new term to me - conscious, unconditional or non-violent parenting is more common) is a philosophy of parenting that embraces unconditional love, empathy and concern for a child’s feelings and needs as its hallmarks.
It is not about manipulating, shaming, isolating or hurting your child to make them do what you think is correct - as much of the dominant paradigm suggests with the use of punishments, unnatural consequences and isolation techniques such as time-outs.
Conscious parenting is not permissive parenting.
It is not about having no limits.
It is not about getting children to behave about any means necessary.
It is also not easy.
It is about holding the long term vision of who we want our children to be as adults. It is about raising compassionate, caring and empathetic children. Science tells us that emotional intelligence is the strongest predictor of later success. The studies also show that emotional intelligence is not supported by the tools of the dominant paradigm. Punishments and praise may work in the short term but they are responsible for long term emotional damage and ultimately disconnect us from our children.
This philosophy is also based in the most current research in brain science.
Humans are the only species born without fully developed brains - we are born with billions of neurons and very few connections. Brain growth is about making those connections. How these connections are made is determined by our experience as our experience shapes the structure of the brain. Those connections that will support later higher brain functioning (in the frontal lobes) such as logic, creative reasoning, empathy and compassion are only formed by loving connected relationships with our primary caregivers.
Marshall Rosenberg (Center for non-violent communication), Alfie Kohn, Daniel Siegel, Naomi Aldort, Dr. Brazelton, Joseph Chilton Pearce, John Gottman, Meredith Small, Lise Eliot, Robin Grille, Alice Miller, Sura Hart & Victoria Kindle Hodson, Barbara Coloroso & David Elkind, Ruth Beaglehole (Center for non-violent education and parenting) are but a few of the authors, doctors and educators who support this philosophy of parenting.
I hope you are not so disaffected by your own childhood or the marketing of such parenting styles that you would be so quick to discredit the pioneering work of experts in the fields of human and child development.
Respectfully,
Lori Petro
Writer/Parent Educator
TEACH through Love
Transforming the Emotional Abuse of Children.
7. mully
April 26, 2009 @ 10:22 pm
How many times can we say “paradigm”?
I still think this is crap, PLUS, I resent the term “violent” being used to describe the tried and true methods which have been used by clear thinking, loving, conscientious parents for centuries. I HIGHLY resent the implication that to raise children with consequences for their actions somehow means I am not a loving parent.
Parenting, for the most part, is really very simple. You love them first and foremost, you set boundaries, you give them rules, you give them consequences when those rules are broken, but you always guide with love.
I wonder Lori and all of your many named associates, how many of you have successfully raised children?
8. s dawson stearns
April 27, 2009 @ 2:02 am
This back and forth is pretty interesting. I think it is telling when people are so defensive about their parenting style that they feel the need to cut down other approaches without really taking the time to understand anything about them. As a mother and advocate of attachment parenting and non-violence in communication, I feel compelled to remind Jessica and some of the others who made comments that the “dominant paradigm” was forged by the same generations that rejected breastfeeding and who also saw no problem with smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol during pregnancy. Time and medical science have allowed attitude about these things to evolve just as parenting techniques have evolved. It is clear that most people feel obliged to make sure their children grow up able to deal with the realities of life, but I am not sure that modeling verbally abusive reactions to different points of view is the best way to go about it.
Nothing is to be gained by name-calling. If you are happy with the way you parent and you feel guided by love, then share your wisdom with other mothers and fathers who are struggling to find the approach that works best for their family. If you feel defensive and annoyed with people who choose an alternative style of parenting to your own, it is possible you are just afraid of examining your own situation. The great thing about some of these “retarded” and “liberal” ideas is the fact that none of them point fingers at some other side and hurl insults.
This new paradigm is not permissive. I remember seeing my cousin brought up by these techniques and everyone in the family scoffed, saying that he was spoiled, that all he needed was a good spanking. Well, my cousin grew up to be the kind of person that we all strive to be. His parents took a hard road, because for all of those times that he “needed a spanking”, they sat down with him and explained the situations. They missed out on alot of moments of self gratification while they were doing this! He was not off the hook or absolved of responsibility. Being spanked or sent to your room is not accepting responsibility for your actions. It might be the quicker way to deal with a child who is not going along with the plan, but it is not teaching anything about the reason why a person should not do hurtful things to others. My Aunt and Uncle taught their child love and understanding by offering those things to him. They trusted that he would grow to regard them and others with the kind of respect that the techniques of the dominant paradigm demand in all situations without offering to explain why.
Every parent has to search their own heart in terms of deciding where their own limits are in terms of parenting their child. I have yet to meet a parent who has not at one time or another felt at a loss about how to communicate with their child, so perhaps we can all step away from the battle and remember we are all in this together whether we like it or not! Everyone has a little wisdom to offer, if we can swallow our pride and listen.
9. mully
April 27, 2009 @ 7:12 am
Not knowing your cousin, we’ll just have to take your word for this. Its an assumptive, on your part, that your cousin is indeed the type of person we all strive to be. Ive raised 4 children and its my opinion and my husbands, but as well, many of our relatives, that my children are good people with productive lives as well. They were not raised using this methodology, so for you to come here and make sweeping remarks to indicate that anything less than “consensual parenting” produces malcontents, or at the very least, unhappy, not well adjusted adults WILL definitely get someones dander up.
Isnt the bigger picture that there are issues within our society that cause dysfunction in families thereby resulting in children not being raised properly?
I still contend that as long as there is love when a punishment is metered out, there will also be balance and children recognize that.
10. Rita
April 27, 2009 @ 7:27 am
That, I agree with.
I’m not a fan of this “consensual parenting” philosophy, but, whatever. I’m confident in how we’re raising our kids. We make mistakes from time-to-time to be sure, and we try to correct them and learn from them best we can, since we’re far from perfect and this is a long journey we’re on.
But, for the most part, I’ve really made an effort to give up judging other parents’ techniques unless they are engaging in true abuse or neglect. I’m also not into the big alarmist idea that this or that is going to raise an entire generation of whatevers and end up being the downfall of our society because they’re lacking in this skill or that skill.
Human trends are changing anyway, as they always have been. It WILL be a different society 30 years from now, run differently, by different people. Just like how the way we do it is different than it was 30 years before us and that was different than 30 years before that. It’s just the way it is. All you can do is raise your own the way you think is best and hope that you are giving them the skills you feel necessary so that they can be functional, happy, well-adjusted adults. The rest, you just can’t worry about too much. Unless they’re actually being abused or neglected.
11. Jessica
April 27, 2009 @ 12:52 pm
“Rejecting” breastfeeding is hardly unevolved, but let’s not go down that whole debate road here since we all know formula feeding is a perfectly viable choice.
I wouldn’t equate smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol during pregnancy to mainstream parenting either. There’s no conclusive scientific measure of submissive parenting as a superior parenting choice.
I personally feel, and it’s my opinion obviously, that submissive parenting is a product of laziness, lacks of resourcefulness and puts the onus on children to make good decisions when we all know that toddlers and children have not matured enough to make those kinds of decisions. Their brains are still developing, that’s why when my children want to hit each other, I don’t let them decide what is appropriate. They’re not developed enough to make that decisions and shouldn’t be expected to eitehr. They are not little adults. In a way, I think it’s kind of mean to put that kind of responsibility on children, to make it so they’re required to reason like an adult and be with-held from guidance and teaching. Again - just my opinion.
12. mully
April 27, 2009 @ 5:28 pm
This is condescending. To assume that well educated people, who live a fairly middle class existence and DONT choose to practice your theories on child rearing, are guilty of communicating violently with their children is a rather generalized comment that wont win you any brownie points. This is really the reason why you caused defensive attitudes. Its insulting to millions of parents who are decent, caring and loving but yet dont partake of the kool-aid you are selling.
You sound very much like a sales pitch and believe me, your sales pitch did nothing to make me want to investigate further and actually convinced me quite the opposite.
Im always a bit wary, as are most people, when something is presented new when the “old” isnt necessarily broken or bad.
If your media approach is being aimed at people who are in the middle class (or higher), educated and with a modicum of sense and caring, you are probably barking up the wrong tree because I would wager that most of them are and have been, doing a fine job of raising well adjusted children into adulthood and have been for a long time and without using your tactics.
Perhaps the aim is to people with little or no education, who drink and do drugs and dont give a rats ass what their kids do. Because in our society, one can easily trace back a child’s behavioral issues to obvious things such as the above. These are also the same parents who regularly WILL communicate violently and WILL punish severely.
I think your campaign needs re-direction toward people who really do need help and lets leave the rest of us who seem to have been doing it just fine, alone.
13. lori-AT-teach-through-love.com
April 27, 2009 @ 5:57 pm
Jessica,
I am not sure what keeps giving you the impression that this philosophy is “submissive parenting.” Nothing could be further from the truth. There is no absolution of parental responsibility in this parenting structure (trying to avoid using “paradigm” for you mully:)
Conscious parenting takes more time, more creativity and more patience than do traditional forms of dicipline. It asks that you spend time looking for root causes of behavior and empathize with your child’s feelings and needs before you arbitrarily assign punishments.
It asks that you consider that children are individuals born with certain likes, dislikes, preferences and differing skills and abilities. Conscious parenting asks that you honor your child and make the choice to connect and problem solve rather than trying to control and manipulate for the sake of rules and convenience.
It asks that you treat your child as you would wish to be treated.
It’s hard to continue to parent from a traditional viewpoint once you learn how humans learn and what they need. This is not some fringe hippie group from Northern Cal peddling snake oil parenting. These are Harvard grad neuroscientists, pediatricians, medical doctors, authors and educators who are all telling us the same thing: long-term emotional damage is not only possible but probable under the dominant parenting belief system.
Of course, parents are not meaning to hurt their children or stifle their brain growth but however unconsciously, they sometimes are. Most parents are unaware of the real effects of their behavior and the beauty of this forum is that awareness can be spread.
Conscious parenting is not a set of rules for parents - it is simply a set of beliefs about children (that is based in current science).
Each family operates according to their own value system and will interpret things differently under this paradigm (damn i did it).
I, personally, wouldn’t skip a doctor’s appointment if my child were grumpy but I would let her know I understood her discomfort and I would try to make the trip as fun and easy for her as possible.
I am looking to teach my daughter responsible and appropriate expressions of her emotions without thwarting her natural impulses, curiosity and urge to explore. I accomplish this with modeling and consistency, not by doling out punitive measures for disobedience.
It’s a choice I made based on what I have learned and experienced. It is not anyone’s place to tell you how to parent. No one has suggested that parents who “punish” or use praise don’t love their kids.
I am simply asking you to consider that 25 years of research could have possibly unearthed some new concepts to consider about child rearing.
Given the rate of adolescent suicides, school-bullying, and the number of American adults on anti-depressants, I don’t personally think that centuries of parenting have done us much good. We’re not living in the world of our parents, so I see no good reason to use the parenting style of our parents.
All the best,
Lori
Make the Promise to Stop Child Abuse
p.s. mully, i think most, if not all of those experts/doctors/authors is a parent.
14. Jessica
April 27, 2009 @ 6:19 pm
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…
Your website that suggests that what I would consider traditional or mainstream parenting is child abuse is a complete strawman.
Not only is it offensive, hyperbole and unscientific, it also sounds like (no offense) like a cult. The whole tone of your message and writing is like you’re in some sort of la la land. It’s kinda creepy actually.
Plus, comparing discipline and structure to child abuse is insulting to real child abuse victims. Telling your kid to say sorry when they hit or throw something at a child is not child abuse.
This is:
http://www.imperfectparent.com/topics/2007/11/21/one-of-the-most-horrendous-child-abuse-stories-ever/
And the only reason I’m being so bold in responding to you is because you’re making some pretty sweeping accusations about mainstream parenting and likening it to child abuse. Get real.
15. Rita
April 27, 2009 @ 7:02 pm
And, I agree with Jessica on that!
16. s dawson stearns
April 27, 2009 @ 7:27 pm
Just for the record, Mully and Jessica, I am not selling anything nor am I doing a media pitch. These are not my theories- I do not own them or pretend to have invented them. I wrongly assumed that this blog was an open forum for discussion. Mully, I am sorry that I was not able to represent a different point of view in a way that would elicit curiosity. I am sure that your kids are just fine, and so are you. Be well!
17. mully
April 27, 2009 @ 7:55 pm
Lori: While I wont argue that we are living in a pretty horrific world today and that there are alot of reasons to consider how our children are being raised. But please consider that many people “raise” our children and many influences bring about the school-bullying, adolescent suicides etc. which we are all so well aware of.
My point is this: We, as parents DO have a huge amount of influence on our kids lives and their future lives, but lets be honest, so do ALOT of other people. I am not suggesting that teachers, coaches, grandparents etc. are bound for blame if children in their care turn out bad and I am also not saying that parents get a pass if their children do turn out bad and that they can ultimately begin pointing fingers at everyone else.
What I am saying is what I said in my earlier post. I think that educated parents of today and possibly for the past 2-3 decades have had their consciousness raised to the point where we are intelligent enough to know enough to parent with responsibility. All of the things that you suggested are things I did 25-30 years ago with my children and I didnt have the “benefit” of your program. I wouldnt have cancelled a doctors appt either, but that really wasnt the issue. The issue was that the child was grumpy and was having a bad day. I would have handled that exactly the way you said YOU would, by talking to her and asking her why she wasnt happy, but I would also have said “hey look Susie, I know you arent in a good mood and I understand that and I am sorry, but lets get this Doctor’s visit over and then we can have lunch and talk about it”
Remember what I said. This was my parenting style a looong time ago and again, w/o the consensual tactics in my head. The point is that Im not alot different from many, many parents (believe it or not). I would wager that most of the people on this site would agree with my way of handling the grumpy child/Dr.appt. scenario. Parents have been doing what you suggest for a long time now.
My guess is that we have so much dysfunction in our children today for a number of reasons, some of which is poor parenting. There ARE bad parents. We know that. We know that people with less education i.e. less self-esteem, less overall happiness in their lives DO tend to abuse their children and at the very least, simply dont parent at all. That is why I mentioned earlier that your program would be served well if it were available to those groups of people who truly need it.
Lastly. I am of the very strong mind that we have taken morality out of our lives in this country and we are a sorrier nation for it. We are raising children with absolutely no connection to a higher power. I will say God here because, in this country, HE is still the overwhelming largest of all the “higher powers”. Many of our children have absolutely NO sense of right and wrong. They see parents doing drugs and or drinking themselves into oblivion and, in the past, when kids lived lives like that, at least they could go to school and have some sort of religious curriculum to help balance some of what they lived with at home.
Nowadays, sadly, there is none of that. I firmly believe that we have the populations such as you mentioned in children and teenagers and then, ultimately, adults because there is no morality, no awareness of the value of life, and no accountability for actions.
18. lori-AT-teach-through-love.com
April 27, 2009 @ 11:12 pm
Mully,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. Your children are lucky to have mindful parents. I don’t think our ideas are so far apart.
Jessica,
I have simply offered information, it is not my intention to change anyones mind.
Our ideas are probably not that far apart either but for now, I respectfully agree to disagree.
All the best,
Lori
19. Jessica
April 28, 2009 @ 8:35 am
I find people say this when they come here, state their opinions/POV’s and are then challenged on them. You wrongly assume that stating your opinions means everybody should agree with them and refrain from offering their own opinions and debate. Debate is welcome here and so are your ideas and opinions, but on this site, you can’t expect one without the other.
20. Jessica
April 28, 2009 @ 8:47 am
But Mully, the thing is, the parents that need this kind of manual the most are likely clinically depressed or lack the skills to parent effectively and appropriately in the first place. While these methods may help those that are looking for guidance as to how to raise their children because they were never taught appropriate teaching methods themselves, the majority of them who need it are probably mentally ill anyway and no amount of “gentle discipline” coaching is going to change that.
Also, and I think this is extremely important, one can argue that a lot of problems seen in young people today is actually the LACK OF GUIDANCE and involvement in parenting, not because parents are issuing too much discipline and/or consequences.
I would argue it’s the result of submissive or lack of parenting and involvement as the key problem here. Unlike our parents, many families have both parents working full time and if a family is lucky enough to have a parent at home, often times the parents let the kids do whatever the hell they want and don’t take the time needed to actually discipline their children and hold them accountable for their actions (that takes a lot more work). Look at the Columbine kids. They were building bombs in their parent’s effin’ basement and the parents were clueless!!!
21. Valerie
April 28, 2009 @ 2:47 pm
I have to agree with Jessica and Mully on this issue. Children do need boundaries and they need to know that their parents are the decisions makers. I would never have cancelled a Dr. appt. because my child was grumpy that particular day. Also, if a child who hits another child is not told to apologize - what is that telling that child? It is telling him that Yes, you did something you shouldn’t have done, but you don’t have to take responsibility for it.
I would have asked the child his reasons for hitting in the first place. I would have gotten to the bottom of the problem, but explained that it is never OK to hit another. I would also have told my son to apologize. Kids can’t go through life doing whatever they want, whenever they want because their parents allow them to make every decision on their own. Parents need to be fully involved and offering guidance until such children are old enough to make informed decisions based on how they were raised in the first place.
Would you allow your 10yr. old son to decide how late he is going to stay out on a school night or what time he wants to go to bed or whether or not he wants to do his homework. Would you allow your 10 yr. old daughter to wear makeup because she wants to or hang around with teenage boys because she wants to. Maybe I am missing the whole point of this consensual parenting. It just doesn’t make any sense to me.
22. cin
April 28, 2009 @ 9:38 pm
I’ve been keeping tabs on this one from my cell since I have been on the road and unable to play.
Reading everything it seems that everyone started out pretty strong but found some common ground by the end. It was cool to see. I really liked what Lori said here
I think we all would agree that our children deserve such respect from us. But respect must be earned. And after I CONSIDER all those things, I believe it is I who is responsible for making the ultimate decisions. That’s what I meant earlier about “the big picture”. A kid is neither aware of all the aspects attached to a decision, nor is he able to consider all angles when making a decision. He chooses according to what makes HIM happy.
I just don’t understand how a child learns to compromise with other children as he gets old or even matures into adulthood if he’s been the primary force behind decision making and has “gotten his way” his whole life. I just don’t know enough about it, I guess. Regardless, although I 100% believe in “thinking” of my kids and me on equal ground and treating them with the same love and respect that I would like, I believe it is my responsibility to make the decisions and the hard choices, dish out the rewards and the consequences, and make sure that the household and everyone in it is happy and harmonious.
It’s too bad S Dawson stormed out on us. I may be being biased and protective, but I think Jess is the one who took the hardest hits. Sheesh! Maybe we are all used to each other and in some kind of groove where we don’t have to choose our words so carefully. Who knows what we sound like to the outside world?! LOL.
***Mully…. thanks for sharing a little bit of your Shannon in our earlier conversation above. Your attitude is inspiring and I can feel the love when you talk about your family. Makes me smile :-)***
23. mully
April 28, 2009 @ 10:32 pm
You are welcome Cin. Shannon is always open for me to discuss. Im very proud of her and so because of that, Im happy to talk about her, answer questions about her and generally, as you put it, share her.
24. Christine
April 29, 2009 @ 12:38 am
Sadly, the model here for attachment parenting is inaccurate and flawed. Permissive parenting is not part of the philosophy. I am just as frustrated as you are at bad and thoughtless parenting.
At one time I found it confusing. Things that I had attributed to attachment parenting turned out to have nothing to do with it. We all see and hear of people doing strange, incomprehensible things and we are all quick to judge. But just because someone is “reasoning” with their 2-year old at Target, or is letting their child’s behavior go unchecked on the playground does not mean that it’s because of attachment parenting. We do have to keep in mind that seeing a tiny snippet of a person’s life is not an accurate representation of who they are or their life philosophy.
As in any group, there will be some folks who are misguided, or who think it’s a pass to abdicate their responsibilities, or who only skim the surface and not really understand what all it’s about. But if you spend some time watching parents who are guided by this method you would see something altogether different than lazy, unconcerned flakes. My child’s pre-school, which is centered on this type of parenting, is amazing. The parents are caring and involved and work together as a community to help raise empathetic, kind people. I’ve seen the results in older children so I’m not just basing it on pre-school behavior.
And it’s not that kids don’t say I’m sorry. They are taught to understand what sorry is about, not just some rote, mindless thing that is said to get out of trouble (not implying that’s what you do). Sorry can be a hug, or a cup of water or the toy that was being fought over. If a problem arises it is never ignored, a parent or teacher is helping the kids with a resolution. There is never a lack of guidance. I work like mad with my child all day long. It’s exhausting, rewarding, but exhausting. One thing I can say for sure is that this way of parenting is not lazy or uninvolved, nor is it easy. But I’ve seen amazing results since I started doing this and I feel confident in myself and my child.
Oh yeah, and I’m not fond of the term “non-violent parenting” either - it can be alienating and puts people on the defensive. Even though it’s based on non-violence in the way that Gandhi saw it, the context is missing and it turns into a device to divide people. It sounds really judgmental to non-practitioner’s ears and that’s a shame.
Finally, and here’s where I’m really going to blow any credibility with some of you but I think it needs to be said, religion has nothing to do with it. There are very religious people at our school and there are atheists, like me. We all parent in a similar way - with care, attention, and morals. I am fed up with those who equate atheism with lack of morality and an inability to teach our children what’s right and wrong. I’m not a drunk or using drugs and take offense to being blamed for society’s downfall. There are a lot of religious people, people who go to church every week, who are not fit parents, who drink, use drugs, kill people, etc. Sorry, I know it’s a whole other argument, just needed to say it.
25. Rita
April 29, 2009 @ 8:33 am
I totally agree with you on that.
I don’t get into labels for parenting styles. I’m just really not terribly interested in what other people are doing as long as it’s not genuine abuse or neglect. What we do has been working very well for us for 14 years, so I don’t see any need to look into another style.
I parent very much like Supernanny. I have a degree in psychology and worked as a social worker for a great number of years devising behavior plans for children, teens, mentally retarded adults and chronically mentally ill adults. By the time I had my own kids, behaviorism was like part of my personality make-up. Tantrums didn’t faze me because my toddlers’ tantrums were nothing compared to the things the teenagers used to pull. Establishing boundaries and following through with consequences wasn’t terribly difficult most of the time, either, although it’s my least favorite part of parenting.
However, I am a huge believer in the old style of behaviorism where kids are motivated by positive reinforcement, so punishment is something that we really don’t use a whole lot of. I do believe in punishment (some call it “consequences” but it’s really just another name for punishment and I’ve found that a LOT of these parenting practices which claim to not use punishment really do use it, but they call it “consequences” or even “natural consequences” which is not really an accurate term, since “natural consequences” would be consequences that naturally occur and not something implemented by parents at all), but I find that if you set things up with positive reinforcement, then punishment isn’t necessary often at all.
I also believe in explaining to my kids the reasons behind my expectations. I’m not one to get into a lengthy discussion at the moment of a decision however, because of safety reasons (we established a protocol long, long ago, where I say NOW and they respond immediately and then we will discuss the reasons when we are at home, because if we’re in a situation where I feel we need to get out, I want them to just MIND ME for their own safety and not get tied up in stating their case for staying right at the moment). But, in the end, after they have stated their case in the approved setting, after I’ve listened to them, if I still disagree, then I will say so.
“I understand what you’re saying. I know that you want this and I understand why, but I disagree and here’s why—-”
I will let them discuss it once more, so I can be sure that my reasons have been understood, and then I’ll say, “Well, that’s my final answer. I’ve told you why. I’m sorry that you disagree with my reasons, but this is the way it’s going to be.”
And that’s that. I won’t argue any further about it. They’ve stated their case, I’ve heard it, I’ve disagreed with it and since I am the parent, my way goes.
There have been times when they’ve stated their case and they have valid reasons. Or valid enough for me to let them try. For me to say, “Well, I think you’ll be very disappointed in this, but maybe it’s best to let you give it a try and see.”
Sometimes kids need to fail or be disappointed, and we have to let them experience that with us as a safety net. I wouldn’t let them do it if there was a possibility for them to get actually hurt, but to suffer some discomfort on a bad choice is part of growing up.
Like I said, it’s worked for us. I am not offended by people claiming that my techniques are somehow harming my kids’ emotional development because I know they’re full of crap. I also know that when you get into the details and argue semantics with these people, they’re employing a LOT of the same things that I do, just under different names, so they can claim to not use punishment. So, I guess I just don’t really care. Our style works for us.
26. Kristy
April 29, 2009 @ 8:50 am
I agree that overly permissive parenting and lack of limits are bad for kids. I don’t agree that “attachment parenting” and “gentle discipline” are just other names for “not doing shit to raise your kids.”
27. CindyC
May 8, 2009 @ 11:42 am
First of all, consensual parenting is *not* attachment parenting. Let’s get that straight right there. If there is one flaw in attachment parenting is that the traditional precepts do not even address discipline beyond the toddler years. And because of this, AP parents don’t have alot of guidance in disciplining their preschooler and beyond. I think AP really needs to address this.
That being said, as an AP parent, I absolutely believe in boundaries and respect for others. And for me, that extends to my child as well. Yes, I try to respect her feelings and where she is in her development. How will we learn that our feeelings are valid and important if our parents do not treat them so?
Yes, we don’t have very many rules in our house and I think that is why it’s much easier for our daughter to follow the very few rules we do have. There is no throwing, hitting, or yelling in our house. This goes for parents, too.
If she hit someone, she very much does know that is totally unacceptable.
So, please don’t confuse consensual parenting with attachment parenting. It’s not the same at all.