1. Rita

May 22, 2008 @ 6:30 am

Well, I think your interpretation of what is “patriotic” could use a little broadening. I am very patriotic, but I’m against the war and I am not happy at all with what this president (who I did not vote for–twice) and his administration have done to this country.

Because I AM patriotic and I DO love this country, I feel it is my DUTY to speak up and protest when I feel that the leaders are leading it in a direction that will hurt it.

Our founding fathers never said anything about loving the administration or leaving the country. Nope. They were more along the mindset that if the people hate the administration they should overthrow it.

I am American and I will defend the country, against her crooked leaders, if need be. The people who are demonstrating their dislike against the things that are going on ARE showing their patriotism.

2. Rita

May 22, 2008 @ 8:59 am

I can’t edit, so I’m just going to add more thoughts here, lol.

See, this is a sore spot because for all these years, we’ve been told that if we’re not in support of the war, not backing the president, that we’re “anti-American.” For all these years, a whole lot of us have had our patriotism questioned in a very McCarthy-like way, which is very frightening.

We’ve been accused of helping the terrorists and putting our country at risk for more attacks if we don’t get in line and shout our praises for Bush and his war.

So, this kind of post just gets a defensive reaction, you know? Because for YEARS now, people like me have had to defend our patriotism and explain again and again that we don’t hate AMERICA, we’re just really disgusted with the way she’s being governed.

3. Kristy

May 22, 2008 @ 9:26 am

I don’t hate America but I also do not consider myself patriotic. I don’t understand the concept of patriotism, nor can I distinguish it from xenophobia. I stand respectfully quiet with my hands at my sides during the pledge of allegiance because I do not like to say things I don’t mean. My allegiance is to all human beings. All children, all mothers, all father, all families. The fact that someone was born on the other side of an imaginary line is meaningless to me, as I think it should be to all of us. Countries, including this one, are imaginary constructs. They change constantly. This country has existed for roughly half the time that ancient Rome did before it fell. It is a baby of a country, and the way we’re going I think we’ll be lucky to make it fifty more years without total collapse. That’s not going to happen because people like me don’t pledge allegiance to a striped pieces of cloth. It’s because we’re a huge piece of land occupied by a lot of aggressively ignorant people who can’t get their priorities straight. It doesn’t make me at all happy to see that the average young adult in this country is barely more than functionally literate, or that businesses can’t find employees who can make change or be trusted not to steal goods and equipment. But observing those facts is not what makes them so. Complaining may not be helping things in this country, but maybe it’s at least a step toward acknowledging that we have major problems as a nation. I may not be patriotic, but I do my part in my own way. I’m raising my children to be responsible, productive, thinking members of society. My work is educating urban public high school students. I live my life in a responsible way that harms no one intentionally. I think those should be the standards for what makes a “good” American, not how many flag magnets I have on my minivan.

4. Rita

May 22, 2008 @ 10:38 am

Kristy, I get what you’re saying. That’s how I was raised. My mom (a teacher, too) never said the pledge of allegiance nor did she ever sing the national anthem. She had a philosophical opposition to the very idea of flags, and she said that our national anthem glorified war. She said if they ever changed it to America the Beautiful, she’d sing. She was right on all accounts, of course. But, because that’s what was the norm in our house, to be rebellious, I had to sing the anthem and say the pledge. So, be prepared, you may have a couple pledge-sayers in your brood, just to show their non-conformity.

I see patriotism as kind of like pride in your school or your neighborhood. It’s microcosm, community care. This is our neck of the woods. This is where our ancestors landed, whenever they landed, and took on as their own. So, now it’s ours and we need to keep it clean and safe and take care of the others who live here with us. I don’t see it as a comparative or competitive thing. It’s like saying, “Oh, isn’t my flower garden pretty?” It’s not saying that yours isn’t, too. You know?

My husband and I have different ideas of “patriotism.” For a long time, when this war first started, I told him I was embarrassed to be American, because our name was world-wide mud. It shamed me that this was what was thought of us, even though there were a lot of us who disagreed with what was being done in our name. The best way to counter that was to shout out to the world, “Hey, we’re American, too, and we DON’T agree with this—this man, this administration does NOT represent all of us.”

But, to me, that’s part of being a patriot, keeping your place from world-wide shame. Keeping it clean, keeping it safe.

My husband doesn’t understand that, since he views “American” as a more holistic thing. That it’s the entire history of the country, not just its current status and representation. He believes in the country as a living belief system, that we as a whole embody the ideas presented in the constitution. So, he had a hard time understanding how a person could be ashamed to be American and be patriotic at the same time. Eventually though, he understood it. I swear, if we allow this man in office long enough, everyone will eventually get it.

But, I think my point is that “patriotism” isn’t a one-size thing. It’s a word with a lot of different meanings to people.

5. Jessica

May 22, 2008 @ 10:59 am

I’m right there with ya. I love this country and I don’t care if it’s un-hip or supposedly unsophisiticated to say it loud! For all the problems we have, we are also incredibly spoiled, rich and priviledged.

I truly believe, and I know I’m showing my red, white and blue colors here, that people who poo poo this country are those that don’t appreciate how good they have it. Our poor are like wealthy people in most countries. We have more freedoms that just about any other country in the world as well. We aren’t perfect, we have work to do, but I feel so lucky to have been born here.

6. Jennifer

May 22, 2008 @ 11:03 am

[quote comment="165051"]I’m right there with ya. I love this country and I don’t care if it’s un-hip or supposedly unsophisiticated to say it loud! For all the problems we have, we are also incredibly spoiled, rich and priviledged.

I truly believe, and I know I’m showing my red, white and blue colors here, that people who poo poo this country are those that don’t appreciate how good they have it. Our poor are like wealthy people in most countries. We have more freedoms that just about any other country in the world as well. We aren’t perfect, we have work to do, but I feel so lucky to have been born here.[/quote]

Ditto!! You go girl!!!

7. Grandma frm Ks.

May 22, 2008 @ 11:49 am

What I say is walk up to a Marine or any other military person and tell them you do not believe in “Old Glory” and he’ll probably cry in your face. I do not not agree with our leaders on a lot of issues, but I have a son, a son-in-law, and a grand daughter in the military, But I know why they are there, My son will be going again for his 3rd tour, and his only request is “if some thing happens to me , Mom don’t blame our President or hate this country, This is truly the best on this earth”. even with all of it’s flaws. and yes Jessica we are spoiled and we have more freedom than any country going. My son has seen the worst of the worst over there and he is willing to go again to help protect the ppl here so they can say what ever the hell they want about this country, this president, this flag, and Our God. Freedom of Speech, pretty sad

8. Jenna Roberts

May 22, 2008 @ 12:06 pm

Just thought it was appropriate to share the following with everyone.

John McCain’s POW Story About The Pledge Of Allegiance-Truth!

Summary of eRumor:
A moving story from Senator John McCain, who was a POW in Vietnam. It’s about a fellow prisoner named Mike Christian who fashioned an American flag out of bits and pieces of clothing. The POW’s would say the Pledge of Allegiance on a regular basis. One day, the flag was discovered and Mike Christian was beaten by his captors. McCain says that Mike immediately began the task of making another flag…a story to remember when saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

The Truth:
The story is true and taken from a speech that John McCain gave before the 1988 Republican National Convention.

A real example of the story as it has been circulated:

From a speech made by Capt. John S. McCain, USN, (Ret) who represents Arizona in the U.S. Senate:
As you may know, I spent five and one half years as a prisoner of war during the Vietnam War. In the early years of our imprisonment, the NVA kept us in solitary confinement or two or three to a cell. In 1971 the NVA moved us from these conditions of isolation into large rooms with as many as 30 to 40 men to a room. This was, as you can imagine, a wonderful change and was a direct result of the efforts of millions of Americans on behalf of a few hundred POWs 10,000 miles from home.

One of the men who moved into my room was a young man named Mike Christian.

Mike came from a small town near Selma, Alabama. He didn’t wear a pair of shoes until he was 13 years old. At 17, he enlisted in the US Navy. He later earned a commission by going to Officer Training School. Then he became a Naval Flight Officer and was shot down and captured in 1967.

Mike had a keen and deep appreciation of the opportunities this country-and our military-provide for people who want to work and want to succeed. As part of the change in treatment, the Vietnamese allowed some prisoners to receive packages from home. In some of these packages were handkerchiefs, scarves and other items of clothing. Mike got himself a bamboo needle. Over a period of a couple of months, he created an American flag and sewed on the inside of his shirt.

Every afternoon, before we had a bowl of soup, we would hang Mike’s shirt on the wall of the cell and say the Pledge of Allegiance. I know the Pledge of Allegiance may not seem the most important part of our day now, but I can assure you that in that stark cell it was indeed the most important and meaningful event.

One day the Vietnamese searched our cell, as they did periodically, and discovered Mike’s shirt with the flag sewn inside, and removed it. That evening they returned, opened the door of the cell, and for the benefit of all us, beat Mike Christian severely for the next couple of hours. Then, they opened the door of the cell and threw him in. We cleaned him up as well as we could.

The cell in which we lived had a concrete slab in the middle on which we slept. Four naked light bulbs hung in each corner of the room. As I said, we tried to clean up Mike as well as we could. After the excitement died down, I looked in the corner of the room, and sitting there beneath that dim light bulb with a piece of red cloth, another shirt and his bamboo needle, was my friend, Mike Christian. He was sitting there with his eyes almost shut from the beating he had received, making another American flag.

He was not making the flag because it made Mike Christian feel better. He was making that flag because he knew how important it was to us to be able to pledge allegiance to our flag and our country.

So the next time you say the Pledge of Allegiance, you must never forget the sacrifice and courage that thousands of Americans have made to build our nation and promote freedom around the world. You must remember our duty, our honor, and our country.

“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

9. Jennifer

May 22, 2008 @ 1:47 pm

Thanks Jenna for this history info. I didn’t know this! I take pride in our country. My brother is in the Navy and I love what he and every other military man has done for us.

10. Grandma frm Ks.

May 22, 2008 @ 2:13 pm

Thank You Jenna, my son had shared this with us before and he still said “if I don’t make it home , keep the faith and the love that you have for this country, and know two men have died for you , the military guy died for your freedom, and Christ died for you soul, And if I don’t make it there will be an “old glory on my casket” No matter how I agree or dis -agree with politics, it’s the men and women of the armed forces who give us our right to have that choice.

11. Kristy

May 22, 2008 @ 9:46 pm

Dear god, it’s like trying to talk to cult members. America is not a flag. It’s not some lines you say by rote while holding your hand over your heart so everyone can see what a good patriot you are. The military does not equal America and not every observation about this country is a direct criticism or praise of the military. A person can have mixed feelings about their country. I persnally don’t see “we’re so spoiled” as a ringing endorsement of the American lifestyle any more than I would see a spoiled child as bearing the mark of good parenting.

Thanks, Rita. My kids say the pledge at school and even though I am no more comfortable with that kind of indoctrination than I would be with daily prayer in school, I have never said anything to them about it. When and if the subject comes up, I will xplain my views to them, but they will always be free to do what feels right to them.

12. Rita

May 23, 2008 @ 6:57 am

[quote comment="165169"]Dear god, it’s like trying to talk to cult members. America is not a flag. It’s not some lines you say by rote while holding your hand over your heart so everyone can see what a good patriot you are. The military does not equal America and not every observation about this country is a direct criticism or praise of the military. A person can have mixed feelings about their country. I persnally don’t see “we’re so spoiled” as a ringing endorsement of the American lifestyle any more than I would see a spoiled child as bearing the mark of good parenting.

[/quote]

LOL. I was gonna comment. You KNOW I was gonna comment. But, I figured I’d just let it go, because I ALWAYS comment.

But, also, I just didn’t even know where to begin. It’s so convoluted. And, I’m really interested in knowing who all these people who “poo-poo” the country are? Are they the people who bitched and moaned when Clinton was in office? I think it’s very ironic that the people who didn’t like THAT president weren’t told to “love it or leave it” or had their patriotism called into questioning.

Your kids are still little, Kristy, they may or may not say the pledge when they get older, but whatever you’re doing, you’re at least raising them to make those decisions for themselves and not just follow the herd.

13. Kristy

May 23, 2008 @ 8:23 am

Exactly! If you hated Clinton, you were a red-blooded American patriot. If you hate Bush, you hate America. Why is that?

It’s funny, but the only display of patriotism I have ever found moving is the scene in “Casablanca” where the Nazis come into the bar and the band and all the patrons burst into a defiant rendition of “Le Marseillaise.” It’s my favorite scene in the whole movie, and I know that I like it because it’s an act of defiance and a slap in the face of the oppression of the Nazi regime. So I guess I can understand the show of patriotism after 9/11 as coming from kind of that same place. It still made me extremely uncomfortable at the time, though. Extremely. It just felt very fraught with negative potential. It seemed to be fueled by a lot of hatred.

14. Jessica

May 23, 2008 @ 9:29 am

It’s not about being Liberal, Democrat, Repulican etc. I can think of plenty of Liberal Democrats who are Patriots. It’s about being appreciative of our country and thankful for what our country has to offer.

Again, while there are always improvements to be made, I’m proud of our country and I don’t think I don’t need any excuses for it. I am *thankful* I get to raise my kids in what I consider to be the best nation on earth.

And, as an aside, I also think that education has an obligation to contrast the freedoms of our country to those countries that oppress and contrast the “riches” of our nation with those who are truly living in poverty. The self loathing should be left at home, and not encouraged in the classroom, IMO. In other words, I don’t agree with teachers telling/teaching children how terrible our government or society or democracy (as we know it)- is.

15. Kristy

May 23, 2008 @ 9:49 am

I just said I don’t impose my views on my own offspring. Do you really think I do it in my classroom? I teach English, and the curriculum for 12th grade is British Lit survey. Beowulf doesn’t really lend itself to anti-American rampages.

And for that matter, I’m not anti-American. The concept of belonging to a country or owing allegiance to a country just is not meaningful to me because countries are something people made up. They shift and change and in the grand scheme of things do not last. I care about people. I care about people from America and I care about people from Iraq and Afghanistan and China and Korea and Africa and Germany and Italy and Mexico. I do not identify with my fellow Americans and more or less, really, than I identify with my fellow human beings from any other nation. I feel that I share a cultural tradition with Americans moreso, maybe, than with someone from, say, Brazil, but honestly I think I have about as much shared culture with a Bostonian as I have with a Bosnian, because Boston is like a different world from the Southern one that I inhabit. Doesn’t mean I don’t like people from Boston or that I only like Southerners. I understand the South and I am comfortable with the full range of Southerners because they’re what I know, but that shouldn’t make me suspicious of Northerners, which it doesn’t, just like my familiarity and comfort with America shouldn’t make me suspicious of people from other countries, which it doesn’t.

I also love the South and want to stay here, but I can see the flaws in Southern culture. I don’t wear Rebel flag t-shirts or have a decal on my car or fly Dixie from the front porch. What would you call me if I did that? A redneck? A scary Deliverance-style nut-job? Why is that kind of zealotry acceptable in one case but not in another? I love the South, but it does not define me. I love America, but it does not define me. My love is clear-eyed and tempered with reality. There is no perfect place.

16. Rita

May 23, 2008 @ 9:49 am

[quote comment="165247"]
And, as an aside, I also think that education has an obligation to contrast the freedoms of our country to those countries that oppress and contrast the “riches” of our nation with those who are truly living in poverty. The self loathing should be left at home, and not encouraged in the classroom, IMO. In other words, I don’t agree with teachers telling/teaching children how terrible our government or society or democracy (as we know it)- is.[/quote]

Can you give examples of this? Because I’ve not experienced what you’re talking about here.

17. Kristy

May 23, 2008 @ 9:50 am

Sigh…that should say “I do not identify with my fellow Americans ANY more or less…”

18. Jessica

May 23, 2008 @ 11:07 am

[quote comment="165250"]I just said I don’t impose my views on my own offspring. Do you really think I do it in my classroom?[/quote]

No, I don’t! I wasn’t talking about you, I was just going off on crazy tangent.

You know, regardless of our political differences, I have a lot of respect for you and Rita, even if we don’t always agree.

19. Kristy

May 23, 2008 @ 11:55 am

Okay, thanks. I just wanted to make sure that wasn’t what you were getting at.