Leave Nancy, Marie, and Esther ALONE!
Posted
April 23, 2008 at
9:14 pm by
Misty
I keep seeing sooo many blogs ridiculing that clip of the women from the LDS-breakoff compound in Texas. They’re robots, they’re brainwashed, they’re as interesting as oatmeal, they’re frumpy, they’re ugly, they’re dressed like Laura Ingalls, they sound coached . . . it just goes on. Many people are demonizing these women, but most are simply laughing their asses off at them.
Well, I’m not. I can’t see anything the least bit comical in that interview. What I see, instead, are three women who have been raised to be gentle, soft-spoken, modest, and kind, thrust into the glare of the public spotlight days after their children were taken from them at gunpoint and the safe insular world that’s all they’ve ever known was torn apart. I see three women standing up to that pressure with incredible grace and strength, doing everything in their power, from breaking their culture’s rules of personal modesty to parroting lawyer-penned lines, to show the world that they’re not child-raping freaks so that they can just get their babies back. I see a fucking TRAGEDY here, and my heart goes out to them.
I do not agree with the practices of the Poly-Mormons. Hell, I just don’t like Mormonism. I also am not a fan of child-rape. But that isn’t what happened there, and nobody seems to understand that.
Picture the scene. You’re a girl, you’re fifteen, you’ve been getting visits from the cardinal for a couple of years now. You live in a culture where there is no independent role for women outside the home. Your parents come to you and say they’ve found a man they’d like you to marry, an older man who is stable and can provide for you and your children and who will treat you kindly. They never say the words, “you have to”, but they’re implied—after all, you’ve been raised to obedience.
You’re not at a Mormon compound in Texas—you’re a free-born American farmgirl born in the year 1835. Or an English noblewoman born in 1532, or a Russian peasant born in 1746. Basically, you’re any girl born anywhere in the world before the twentieth century.
In our modern culture we seem to equate “marriage to underaged girls” with “brutal rape of babies.” Not so. These “children” were probably quite a bit less traumatized by their wedding night than I was by losing my virginity against my will at roughly the same age. Hell, they’re less traumatized than their male counterparts, countless of whom are exiled and abandoned because with the old men marrying multiple young girls, they have no prospects of a wife and family and therefore no place in their culture. But that’s another beef, for another time.
I’m not trying to defend the practices of these “cults”, although I could, to an extent. I’m defending Nancy, Esther, and Marie from the demonization that is being heaped upon their bowed heads. These women were not knowingly commending their daughters into the hands of slavering, abusive child-rapists. They were marrying them off to provider-husbands, as their culture believed. They’re not Koreshians sending their ten-year-old daughters off to a “spiritual marriage” with a slimy cult leader, they’re simply doing what their mothers did, what their grandmothers did, what YOUR great-great-grandmother probably did. They are living the life to which they were born in the best manner possible, and now that life has been torn out from under them. Imagine what you’d feel like if suddenly THEY were the majority, and came storming into your home and confiscated your children because you’d been a horribly abusive monster for letting your 17-year-old daughter dress like a hooker. Myself, I’d be a pissed-off, fire-spitting, enraged dragon-lady. I would not have the strength to sit in front of a camera and quietly, gently, and smilingly defend my way of life. I’d make an ass out of myself, and where would that get me?
Again, I’m not saying that I believe the way these people live is “right”. I’m also not saying it’s “wrong”. It’s most certainly different, but not so much so in a historical context. I’m just saying that no matter the findings of abuse that may or may not come out of the investigation, there is no call to humiliate these women further with public ridicule. They have suffered more in the past few weeks than you or I, G-d willing, will ever suffer in our entire lifetimes. They are terrified, they are lost, and they are despairing. And yet they still have the strength to go on a television program where they knew they were going to be torn apart for their beliefs, and answer questions calmly, gently, and smilingly. They have comported themselves with more grace than I could ever hope to. That’s not “brainwashing”, folks, that’s fucking CLASS. I admire these women for that. And that’s all I’m going to say on the subject.
Tags: child-marriage, compound, esther, LDS, marie, mormon, nancy, News-&-Politics, Texas |
21 Responses to “Leave Nancy, Marie, and Esther ALONE!”
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1. Jessica said:
April 23, 2008 @ 9:37 pm
Problem is — this ISN’T 1835 and just as women, who only recently won the right to vote in 1920, we don’t treat children like cattle to be traded, demeaned and forced into sexually satisfying older men.
A society is only as humane as how they treat their children and how they protect them. Caring about the rights of children is a sign a civilized and educated society. I will never agree that children as young as 13 are happy giving 45 year old men blow jobs instead of just being kids.
There are a lot of things that people did in 1835 (which, BTW, I believe was statutory rape even back then and was punishable by death) that is not acceptable now.
Forget it. I will never rationalize exploitation of children and child rape, and that is exactly what it is. Thirteen year olds cannot give consent, especially in trade of punishment for safety. That’s bullshit.
2. Allison J said:
April 23, 2008 @ 9:51 pm
Oh, I absolutely think this is wrong! They comprehend what they are doing, which is why they try desperately to remove themselves from society.
They cast out young men, boys really, with no skills, no real education, no way of functioning in the world, so that the old men can have a go at the 13 year old girls.
Historically, people with Down Syndrome, psychological problems, etc. would be sent to live in horrid institutions, treated as sub-human beings. Would that be ok today, since it was once normal practice? People thought that what they were doing was right. They rationalized it then.
I have sympathy for the children. Not for the men. Not for the grow adult women.
3. Misty said:
April 23, 2008 @ 9:55 pm
These 13-year-olds were, most probably, NOT what you or I would consider a 13-year-old. I’m betting that they acted more mature than most college grads. They were trained in the skills needed to keep a home and raise children. They were, in the eyes of the society they belonged to, adults, both phsyically and socially. This is still true in many parts of the world.
Now, if you took the average “modern” American 13-year-old girl, and put her into that sort of marriage, it would be an atrocity. It would break her heart and quite possibly her mind and spirit as well.
I’m not saying that I agree with the lifestyle or even the age of marriage–I don’t, personally, but I enjoy playing devil’s advocate sometimes, gives me a break from the agreeable, cheerful Mommy that I have to be the other 99% of my day.
I’m not trying to defend or rationalize the practices of this sect. I’m just trying to say that these women have done the best they *know* how to do, the best that they’ve been *taught* to do, and you can’t fault them for their grief and pain, and it’s downright childish to sit around going “OMG, will you LOOK at that dress she’s wearing! What a freak!!!”
4. Misty said:
April 23, 2008 @ 10:09 pm
But these women have never read Steinham, or Friedman, or even Cosmo, fer tit’s sake. You are only as informed as the information you’re exposed to.
I’m just saying that these women are hurting, and freaking BEWILDERED beyond our imagining. I do not believe, in my heart, that they knew or believed what they were doing was wrong. There are far worse examples of “motherhood” out there which are truly deserving of our scorn and derision. I don’t think, from where I stand, that these ladies are among them.
5. Rebecca said:
April 23, 2008 @ 11:36 pm
I want to start out by saying that I do not know everything about the FLDS practises and ways. However, I am familiar with some laws. Now, I believe in most states anyone can get married at different ages, even minors! Shocking I know, but w/ parents consent, minors can get married at age 13 or 14 (the youngest I have found). So, to jump in and say that these young girls are being raped, just b/c they are minors and married is a little far fetched for me.
I also believe that people have minds for themselves. I know that the FLDS are raised a certain way, but if I was a young girl, pressured into getting married, and I did not want to, I would run away. There are numerous organizations out there that help people break away from FLDS.
I do not think we as “regular” citizens should talk badly about the mothers. I think one stated that we don’t understand them, and they don’t understand us. Which is very true. Everyone should leave them alone. I could not imagine what they are going through right now. Plus the mothers are not the ones supposedly raping the young girls right??? Where’s the men??
I only have one more issue with this whole ordeal.
The police raided due to suspision of child abuse. However, they cannot ignore and FLDS cannot deny that they are polygamist. So why are the parents not being arrested? I understand if tehy want to take care of the children first, but, usually when someone is blatantly breaking the law, they are arrested. Right?? That’s the only confusing part for me.
6. Rita. said:
April 24, 2008 @ 6:56 am
Misty, they were wrong. I know they were secluded and I know they were raised this way, but they still knew it was illegal. Whether they knew or will ever know that what they’ve done is morally wrong isn’t our issue. The cult did know that what they were doing was illegal. They just believed they were above our laws.
I don’t think that any of them are “sickos,” because of this. The boys were raised the same as the girls and then they grew up to be men and women. It’s just that what they were doing (thankfully) is not allowed by our laws. Their actions did result in the rape of little girls. There was a report about a twelve year-old who was pregnant. I have a thirteen year old son and I see his peers and this is just gut wrenchingly painful to even think about, girls that age married off and and being forced (by having no alternative) to have sex with these much, much older men.
I do feel for them. The men and the women, who were brainwashed and abused as kids and now are adults. I really feel very, very bad for them. I hope that they can all go through a re-eduction process, get assistance in being set up here in the real world and get custody of their kids again (under probation and continuing help from family services). I don’t think that these women (or even a lot of the men) should serve jail time or suffer criminal prosecution, but what they did needs to be remedied and made sure it doesn’t happen again.
7. Rita. said:
April 24, 2008 @ 7:03 am
[quote comment="157794"]So, to jump in and say that these young girls are being raped, just b/c they are minors and married is a little far fetched for me.
[/quote]
But, it is rape. Making someone have sex against their will is rape. These girls have no free will to begin with. Rape doesn’t have to be at gunpoint or being overpowered physically at the time of the incident. Rape can be when a woman feels she has no other choice (like in cases of incest). That’s the kind of rape that happened here. These women were not living a life where they could choose ANYTHING, it was all forced upon them, including who they had sex with. So, just because they “agreed” to it does not make it consent in the real meaning of the word. They “agreed” because they had no other choice.
8. Misty said:
April 24, 2008 @ 7:11 am
I grew up in an area with a very large Pentacostal and Holiness Church presence, so these women maybe don’t seem so foreign to me as they do to many.
And a pregnant twelve-year-old is a disturbing, infinitely sad spectacle. One that you can see in countless middle schools across the country.
9. Jessica. said:
April 24, 2008 @ 8:33 am
[quote comment="157794"]I want to start out by saying that I do not know everything about the FLDS practises and ways. However, I am familiar with some laws. Now, I believe in most states anyone can get married at different ages, even minors! Shocking I know, but w/ parents consent, minors can get married at age 13 or 14 (the youngest I have found). So, to jump in and say that these young girls are being raped, just b/c they are minors and married is a little far fetched for me.
I also believe that people have minds for themselves. I know that the FLDS are raised a certain way, but if I was a young girl, pressured into getting married, and I did not want to, I would run away. There are numerous organizations out there that help people break away from FLDS.[/quote]
You are simply blaming the victim of rape here, basically saying they deserve it because they didn’t stop it. I think you’re being ignorant of how these children are being brainwashed and forced into these situations.
Also, I know of no state where you can marry off a 13 year old to a 50 or 60 year old male. Please provide some proof of this.
10. Jessica. said:
April 24, 2008 @ 8:37 am
[quote comment="157779"]
These 13-year-olds were, most probably, NOT what you or I would consider a 13-year-old. I’m betting that they acted more mature than most college grads. They were trained in the skills needed to keep a home and raise children. They were, in the eyes of the society they belonged to, adults, both phsyically and socially. This is still true in many parts of the world.[/quote]
This is an argument many pedophiles make for legalizing pedophilia, that:
a. Other parts of the world it’s legal (yeah, like in 3rd world countries)
b. Many 13 year olds enjoy being forced into sex and are okay with it
c. 13 year olds, and even younger are only a product of their parents and environment telling them that sexual relations with old men is taboo
Social taboos are there for a reason.
Furthermore, these girls and their babies do not have birth certificates and the marriages are without legal license. You can just have your own anarchy society within a society. Laws apply to everyone and ignorance is not a defense!
11. Candy said:
April 24, 2008 @ 9:31 am
If feel sorry for the mothers and children because I believe they are all victims.
BUT, they know that it is against the law in Texas to marry under 16 years of age unless granted a court order. Legally, they aren’t married and that is also against the law - statutory rape.
It is not against the law to allow your 17 year old to dress like a hooker and the police won’t bust down your door and take her away for that alone.
Candy
12. Misty said:
April 24, 2008 @ 10:11 am
13. Candy said:
April 24, 2008 @ 11:17 am
I understand your exercise, but I don’t think it works here because one is breaking the law and the other is just horrible judgment.
I tried to think of an example that we could relate to that is unlawful, but nothing came to mind. This is why my sympathy for the adults is limited.
I agree, looking and sounding funny are ridiculous things to demonize when there is so much more wrong with their situation.
Candy
14. Prescott said:
April 24, 2008 @ 12:57 pm
I have nothing intelligent to add to this discussion, I just wanted to say that I liked the Chris Cocker reference…
15. Misty said:
April 24, 2008 @ 12:59 pm
16. Misty said:
April 24, 2008 @ 1:10 pm
See, that’s not it, at least not for the women involved. Warren Jeffs, on the other hand . . . well, that’s a matter for another rant. Groups like this that remove themselves from society do so because they believe that society is corrupt, and they don’t want their families or children corrupted by contact with it. One example: religiously-motivated homeschoolers don’t keep their kids home from school because they “know” that what they’re teaching them is wrong, they do so because they believe that what the greater world would teach them is wrong. Not everyone who removes themselves from society is trying to keep a deep, dark secret–the vast majority are simply trying to create a little corner of the world that’s in tune with their moral and/or religious beliefs. Hell, many is the afternoon I’ve spent daydreaming about a private island where I could raise my kids without the influence of popular culture. It’s every parent’s right to try to instill their values in their children—it’s when those values are harmful to the child in a real and tangible way that they forfeit that right.
17. Rita. said:
April 24, 2008 @ 1:18 pm
[quote comment="157883"]
Groups like this that remove themselves from society do so because they believe that society is corrupt, and they don’t want their families or children corrupted by contact with it. [/quote]
It really seems to be more than that with this group though. They do get government financial assistance, so they do know some ins and outs of American law. They also knew enough to move the kids from building to building to try to dodge CPS workers. And, they’ve been very uncooperative with finding who belongs to whom. So, they do seem to be a big savvy with the system. At least enough to know that what they were doing was against our laws, and living in our country, they have to abide by our laws.
Like I said, I think they were raised to believe that they were above our laws. That our legal system was wrought with immorality and therefore they shouldn’t have to follow our laws. But, well, tough shit, they live on American soil, they have to follow American laws and we have an age restriction for consensual sex.
18. Misty said:
April 24, 2008 @ 1:38 pm
19. felix sapbatamos said:
April 26, 2008 @ 9:31 pm
Comparing this ‘evil’ situation to colonial times (or whatever era you choose) has to be the least intelligent thing I think I have ever seen on the net. So, being raised in a controlled and sheltered social structure is validation for forcible sex? I don’t think you get it. These ‘cults’ are breeding fields for men that prey on young girls for sexual pleasure - a vicious cycle that constantly repeats itself. The older women have and care for the girls (boys that don’t comply or fit in are weeded out quickly), girls are raised and taught (and forced) to be completely subservient to the men and as soon as the young girls are physically able to have sex they are thrown into the cycle. This story that broke is the tip of the iceberg. Wait until the investigation finds the abused that are willing to talk and give all the details, then you will know the truth about the abuse! The actions and speech of the brainwashed women in the media should be enough evidence , and if not - what about the sex rooms beside the altar in the ‘Church’. People - wake up! There is a reason why these groups isolate themselves from the rest of the world and go to all lengths to hide what they do - because its wrong!
20. Allison J said:
April 26, 2008 @ 10:38 pm
Felix, I couldn’t agree with you more. Well said.
21. Kristy said:
April 28, 2008 @ 10:37 pm
I disagree about the relative wrongness of what these women did, but I agree that people seem to be taking a certain mean-spirited pleasure in bashing these women. The whole thing is just sad and fucked up.