Another Texas Mother wipes out her children
Posted
May 29, 2007 at
3:33 pm by
Jessica
Again. Again and again. I can hardly stand to hear another one of these stories.
Yet, another Texas mother, identified as Gilberta Estrada, brutally kills her children in a trailer home by hanging them. The twist in this case, is that she succeeded with all but the infant, who was struggling in her noose and rescued when the aunt found the family hanged. Unfortunately, the 5, 4 and 2 year old were already dead, as was the mother.
The most disgusting fact of the article that reported this horrific and tragic incidence, was the fact that this is a frequent pattern in Texas and that a portion of our society calously chooses to give these “mothers” amnesty over giving these children justice or putting abused children first:
Houston Chronicle/AP TX news: The slayings came nearly five years after another woman in Hudson Oaks killed her three children. On July 16, 2002, Dee Etta Perez, 39, shot her 4-year-old daughter and sons, ages 9 and 10, before killing herself.
Texas has seen a disturbing number of child killings by mothers in recent years.
Andrea Yates drowned her five children in the family’s Houston bathtub in 2001. In 2003, Deanna Laney beat her two young sons to death with stones in East Texas, and Lisa Ann Diaz drowned her daughters in a Plano bathtub. Dena Schlosser fatally severed her 10-month-old daughter’s arms with a kitchen knife in 2004.
All four of those women were found innocent by reason of insanity. Yates initially was convicted of capital murder, but that was overturned on appeal.
It is so uncivilized and selfish that there are adults that think that preserving the rights of adults to make the decision of whether or not their children are worthy of life, supersedes their moral obligation to protect children from heinous killers. Furthermore, it is a sad statement of the world in which we live in, that adults in our society see children as objects and of little value, especially when compared to adults. (Ah, they were just babies after all, it’s not like they were adults.)
It’s no wonder why moms keep torturing and killing their kids. Other people keep making excuses for them in order to protect their own selfish agenda - to preserve exclusive rights of adults and make children nearly invisible and worthless. Imagine if we put children first? Adults would be held accountable for them, wouldn’t they?
There is no reason for these “mothers” to second guess themselves. They are constantly being told by society that if they brutally kill their children, it’s not their fault - they’re still good people and that society really doesn’t care. It’s not as if it’s a man who raped a woman or student who shot his peers at a school, c’mon, they were just having a bad day!
The only silver lining is that the mother actually took her own life as well. At least we will have one less murdering, child abusing political pawn to ante up money for some spa-like “therapy” in which child killing advocacy groups can reward her with.
The children however, deserved better.
Tags: Gilberta Estrada, News & Politics, park county, Texas
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1. thordora said:
May 30, 2007 @ 10:21 am | Quote
It’s disgusting to me that we live in a culture so quick to judge the mentally ill, and so quick to discount that mental illness IS a sickness, a disgusting, horrible one at that.
There is little, to now support for the mentally ill, especially individuals suffering from PPD or PPP. There women are left isolated in many ways to go off their own personal deep end, so rooted in the delusions that govern their minds.
And yet we continue to discount that this is REAL, that these women are SICK and that this happens to the women around you. Some of us get better, or have families that insist on treatment, families who protect us AND our children.
Not everyone is so lucky. I don’t see anyone chastising the husband who left his 23 year old wife alone with four children under 5. Where was he in protecting his children? Where we the resources protecting any of them?
I resent the implication that the mentally ill feel that they have a free ride. Ever felt like killing your own child, and had to do everything in your power to NOT do so, to remove yourself from the situation, and beg for help? I HAVE. There is no free ride from the knowledge that you had the ability in your heart to hate and kill your children, the very people you are meant to protect.
Live in the shoes of one of those women. Live in the shoes of anyone suffering from mental illness. It is obvious that murder is wrong, and has been done. But not trying to prevent the circumstances that lead to the killing is equally wrong. Chastising a woman who may have been suffering under the burden of a mental illness she could not control is really unsettling to me, as someone who lives day in and day out with a mental illness.
2. Jennifer said:
May 30, 2007 @ 1:36 pm | Quote
Don’t you think you are being a little harsh on this mother. Obviously she felt she had no other choice. It is a horrible thing, I agree, but it’s also a sad thing that this mother was left alone with no one to help her. I can’t imagine what was going through her mind when she felt so desperately hopeless. obviously she wanted her children with her and that’s why she took their lives as well as hers. That way they are with her and not left alone. I’m sure in her mind, killing them was better than leaving them alone.
3. Jessica said:
May 30, 2007 @ 1:42 pm | Quote
You may have a point, but the argument that women don’t have the resources they deserve, albeit valid, does not justify or excuse the torture and murder of children.
I don’t discount that mental illness is real, however, it is not a one-illness-fits-all disorder. Many women that kill their children are narcistic and whatever their intentions - whether it’s within their control or not, we must put the safety of the children first. We still cannot allow mental illness to be a reason to kill your children. Again, I think the therapy and justice are two, totally separate issues.
The husband didn’t brutally hurt and kill his children though. The mother did. It’s easy to blame someone else, but she did it.
No, I have never felt like actually killing my children. I don’t know what that feels like, but even if I did, I would hope that wouldn’t excuse it. If you know you feel like that, I would hope that the mom would seek some kind of therapy or pharmceautical solution. If a mother cannot even be lucid enough to determine that she needs help, then she really shouldn’t be caring for children to begin with.
I’m sorry that you are living with mental illness. I’m sure that is very difficult for both you and your family.
I’m not chatizing mental illness or insisting that it doesn’t exist or that woman shouldn’t get help, but I don’t think that it absolves all responsiblity from the mentally ill mother who kills her children. We cannot say that murder is justified or excusable if a mother is mentally ill. When you think about it, most child abusers and killers are mentally ill. Should none of them be forced to pay for their crimes?? Should the man that raped and buried Jessica Lunsford alive down in Florida be exonerated because he’s mentally ill? IMO, no.
I think we need to separate the compassion for the mothers and societies duty to declare it wrong, no matter what the state of mind is at the time. It’s just never okay.
4. Jessica said:
May 30, 2007 @ 2:24 pm | Quote
Yeah, I don’t buy that. How do you know she wasn’t trying to get back at the Dad? I also find it very telling that all of these women choose to kill their children in such a way that causes the most suffering and pain to their children.
So, I guess I find no nobility in what she did and because of that, I’m the bad guy???
5. Petulant Pixie said:
May 30, 2007 @ 2:31 pm | Quote
Nobody’s saying it’s “OK”. They’re saying that prison time or a death sentence isn’t appropriate justice.
I also get worried when I see someone use the phrase “pay for crimes”. I don’t understand how anyone “pays” for a crime. It can’t be undone. I think there is big confusion between justice and vengence. They’re not the same. A crime isn’t “paid for” by an act of equal violence against the criminal. It isn’t an eye for an eye.
I also see no benefit in imprisoning these women, or putting them to death. You seem to be saying that by setting them up as an example that it would deter other mothers from killing their children? Do you honestly believe that if a mother is seriously that far gone mentally that she’s considering killing herself, that thinking, “Oh, wait, that woman in Texas got the death sentence for this, I better not!” is REALLY going to happen? Like that spark of rational thought would undo all the tons of irrational thought that caused her to have the homocidal thoughts to begin with? Or that fear of being caught would even undo all the torment that she is feeling inside leading her to thoughts of killing her kids? I honestly don’t understand what good to society putting these women in a traditional prison, or killing them would do.
But, I can see how exposing them and the mental illness that drove them to these murders can eventually shed some light on the seriousness of mental illness and actually stand a chance in preventing future cases. If people take it seriously.
6. Jessica said:
May 30, 2007 @ 2:59 pm | Quote
I’m not sure it would do any good either; my reasoning has more to do with the fact that the only message we’re sending rght now is that if you kill you’re children, it’s not your fault.
Furthermore, the critical message “punishment” (prison) would send, is more for the legacy of the children themselves than it is for the mother. Whether or not the mother ultimately feels good about herself is irrelevant after she brutally kills her children. I really don’t care about her self-worth at that point or if she’s happy or sad. What about the kids? Don’t they matter?
Plus, I do believe that prison serves as justice for victims. I do believe in punishment, especially for crimes against children, so we have a fundamental difference of opinion on that.
7. Paul said:
May 30, 2007 @ 4:07 pm | Quote
“The most disgusting fact … that a portion of our society calously chooses to give these “mothers” amnesty over giving these children justice or putting abused children first.”
What the hell are you talking about? Amnesty? Who said anything about “amnesty”?
“The only silver lining is that the mother actually took her own life as well.”
This is a silver lining? Wow, you are really messed up and given the completely illogical arguments you made (not to mention the dreadful grammer and incomplete sentences), I doubt there’s any way to talk any sense into you.
8. Prescott said:
May 30, 2007 @ 4:16 pm | Quote
I really didn’t want to chime in here, but I just couldn’t let the sweet irony of Paul misspelling “grammar” slide…
9. Jessica said:
May 30, 2007 @ 4:20 pm | Quote
Ad hominem.
10. Petulant Pixie said:
May 30, 2007 @ 4:33 pm | Quote
I guess we do have a difference of opinion on that. I don’t see punishment for crimes committed to be healing or helpful for anyone. It’s still just feeding bloodthirst, IMO.
I do see great benefit in preventing crimes from being committed though. Prison serves that purpose for most criminals. Some atually are able to be rehabilitated. But, there’s a lot more going on to make an actual criminal that can be un-done inside the confines of a prison setting (or any other institutional setting), so rehabilitation doesn’t work. But by studying mentally ill criminals in a medical setting, we might come to an understanding of these illnesses and how to treat them so more mothers aren’t killing their children in the future.
11. Petulant Pixie said:
May 30, 2007 @ 4:35 pm | Quote
I can’t figure out the quote thing. And my brain is just mush. Jess, you and I have had this argument so many times over the years, I don’t think there’s anything either of us can say to each other that’s new anyway.
12. Paul said:
May 30, 2007 @ 5:33 pm | Quote
Ok, Jessica.
You mentioned “child killing advocacy groups.” Name one of these groups.
You stated: “At least we will have one less murdering, child abusing political pawn to ante up money for some spa-like “therapy” to which child killing advocacy groups can reward her with.” This statement makes absolutely no sense.
“There is no reason for these “mothers” would second guess themselves.” What?
“Other people keep making excuses for them in order to protect their own selfish agenda - to preserve exclusive rights of adults and make children nearly invisible and worthless.” Again, what the hell are you talking about?
“…a portion of our society calously chooses to give these “mothers” amnesty…” Amnesty? What amnesty? Name one person that said anything about amnesty.
“Furthermore, it is a sad statement of the world in which we live in, that adults in our society see children as objects and of little value, especially when compared to adults.” Who does? What are you talking about?
All of this is just incoherent rambling.
13. bobby said:
May 30, 2007 @ 5:59 pm | Quote
Anybody who defends this sick woman who will burn in hell -and by the way, won’t have the “company” of her kids there, the ‘company’ she “sought” - Should be locked up for life, rather than risk even one more child’s life. Stop sympathizing with cold blooded murderers. by doing this, you are in essense being partners in crime to the next mom- “kid loving” -killer.
14. Jessica said:
May 31, 2007 @ 8:42 am | Quote
I think of it as more of a rant than rambling.
I think you get the gist of what I’m saying. Feel free to disagree, might prove to be more interesting than obtuse objections to language.
In a nutshell, in case you missed it (and I don’t think you did), I feel there is a prevailing attitude in America which tells women that if they torture and kill their children, it’s not their fault; and they shouldn’t be held accountable.
I also think there is a prevailing attitude that abuse against children is not as bad as violations against adults, because children’s rights are not as important as adults. A portion of our society tends to forgive women who hurt children, actually anyone that hurts children, as if their feelings and pain is insignificant and unimportant and underdeveloped.
Conversely, if it was a black man that drowned his children in a bathtub or cut off his baby’s arms, I highly doubt there would be so much compassion, sympathy, forgiveness or an emotional acquittal granted before the person even stands trial.
In my original post, it states that the most famous of child abuse/murder cases of mothers killing their children, they were all found innocent. To me, this is the same thing as amnesty. Why even bother having prisons if we aren’t going to try do bring justice to child abusers and killers?
15. Paul said:
May 31, 2007 @ 10:00 am | Quote
My comments were hardly “obtuse objections to language.” I’m saying that your arguments are, at best, illogical. And a lot of what you are presenting as fact is simply untrue.
You say that these women were found “innocent.” That’s not true. They were found to be insane and were sentenced to a lifetime confinement in a psychiatric facility. That’s not amnesty. And some of your comments seem to suggest that spending time in a psychiatric facility is “spa-like therapy.” You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. The high risk wards in psychiatric facilities are much more similar to prisons than they are to spas. Feel free to visit one (you’ve obviously never seen one) if you don’t believe me.
You state that there are people who think that “abuse against children is not as bad as violations against adults.” I have no idea where you are coming up with this nonsense. Nobody thinks that. Feel free to cite one person who has said anything remotely similar to this.
You say that there is “a portion of our society tends to forgive women who hurt children, actually anyone that hurts children, as if their feelings and pain is insignificant and unimportant and underdeveloped.” What portion? Who thinks this? Name one person. Again, you are making this up and there is absolutely no basis in fact for this statement.
And the last gem: “There is a prevailing attitude in America which tells women that if they torture and kill their children, it’s not their fault; and they shouldn’t be held accountable.” Nobody thinks this. Again, name one person who has said that a woman who tortures her child should not be held accountable. Name one person who has ever said there should be no ramifications for these acts. This is pure nonsense.
16. bobby said:
May 31, 2007 @ 2:02 pm | Quote
paul- you are talking rubbish.You keep on demanding proof from jessica and saying name one person who says….. Paul- there is noone to name because they don’t say it straight out-they are too scared. They imply it. Take you for example a ‘child killer defender’- you are implying all those things.Therefore, for proof, you are the best proof.
17. Petulant Pixie said:
May 31, 2007 @ 2:18 pm | Quote
Wow. I guess I’m a “child killer defender” too? That’s just incredible.
I don’t see anyone “defending” these women. I see the medical and court system making a distinction between criminally insane and just a criminal and assigning sentencing accordingly. Andrea Yates is not running free, she is condemned to a mental health facility for the rest of her life. The woman in this most recent case is dead. She clearly wasn’t trying to “get away” with anything, which is the implication I see in this thread–that if we aren’t given a threat of prison, any woman any time might just want to off her kids and get off scot-free. Like stealing a tube of lipstick when we were 15 and didn’t think we would get caught. That’s the underlying message I’m getting here, and that really bothers me.
18. Paul said:
May 31, 2007 @ 3:17 pm | Quote
Yes, you’re right Bobby. I hate children and “see them as objects of little value, especially when compared to adults.” I beleive that “abuse against children is not as bad as violations against adults.” But, gosh darn it, I’m just too scared to say it. So I imply it. Why do I do this? Becuase I have a “selfish agenda - to preserve exclusive rights of adults and make children nearly invisible and worthless.” Ya, that’s the ticket.
But you’ve seen right through me you shrewd bastard you. It’s a good thing we have people like you around to protect those Yates kids. Yeah, they’re safe now. Good goin’ Bobby. Now, if only we can kill Andrea Yates in the most gruesome and public manner possible. There would never be another mother who kills her children and herself after that, you know, because she’ll be afraid that we’ll kill her. Again. After she’s done it herself. Only we’ll kill her corpse in a gruesome and public way. That’ll show ‘em.
19. Jessica said:
May 31, 2007 @ 4:24 pm | Quote
Paul and PP, we disagree on how justice is served in these cases. Can we all just agree on that?
PP, you said:
The woman in this most recent case is dead. She clearly wasn’t trying to “get away” with anything, which is the implication I see in this thread–that if we aren’t given a threat of prison, any woman any time might just want to off her kids and get off scot-free. Like stealing a tube of lipstick when we were 15 and didn’t think we would get caught. That’s the underlying message I’m getting here, and that really bothers me.
Again, it’s not even about getting away with it, although I do think the insanity defense is grossly abused. All these women, are essentially getting off essentially scot-free (with mental institutions that offer beauty salons and free time to walk the gardens, and television sets etc., and bedrooms without bars). This set-up is not symbolic of any kind of justice for any of those masacred children, nor does say to these women that as a society, we think it is WRONG — in fact, it’s the worst crime one can commit.
I think there is immense value in standing up and declaring that and holding people accountable for calously taking the life of children, *regardless* of their state of mind. If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a thousand times, pretty much everyone that murders is mentally ill. You can even argue that pedophiles are mentally ill, so how much compassion should a civilized society have for people who hurt children? How much forgiveness do we owe these individuals? Is nobody accountable for their actions??
Paul said:
You say that these women were found “innocent.” That’s not true. They were found to be insane and were sentenced to a lifetime confinement in a psychiatric facility. That’s not amnesty.
Actually, they were found innocent by *reason* of insanity. Insanity should not be an excuse to hurt your children and make them suffer an excruciatingly painful death.
Paul said:
And some of your comments seem to suggest that spending time in a psychiatric facility is “spa-like therapy.” You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. The high risk wards in psychiatric facilities are much more similar to prisons than they are to spas. Feel free to visit one (you’ve obviously never seen one) if you don’t believe me.
You’re right, I don’t know what these psychiatric institutions are like, but Andrea Yates would not have fought so hard for it if it were exactly like prison. She has way more freedom and amenities at a mental institution and she is not behind bars and is able to take various classes and enjoy the sunset and walk the grounds freely, something her children will never be able to do. If it were just like prison, then why fight for her to be there? Plus, she can get out at any time. There was no official sentence. Her physicians can let her out tomorrow if they think she is repsonding well to medication. I’m sure she would love that and probably thinks she deserves it too.
20. vicky said:
May 31, 2007 @ 4:39 pm | Quote
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/psychology/fathers_who_kill/4.html
this mother was a survivor of an abusive relationship. let’s not forget that. and there are many more men who kill women and children but those stories don’t receive the same scrutiny
21. Petulant Pixie said:
May 31, 2007 @ 4:43 pm | Quote
OK, Jess. I think you’re really overglorifying what a mental facility is like and overestimating what prison is like. She can’t walk the grounds freely. She can walk the enclosed grounds under strict supervision (not unlike prison). She can have her hair done (which she’d be able to do in prison, too). She has mental stimulation, and they do in prison as well. Where she is now, she is receiving treatment for her medical condition. She is also safer, from herself and from other dangerous people.
As far as mental illness vs insanity, you and I have gone round and round with that before, too. There are very strict criteria for deeming someone legally insane instead of just suffering from a mental illness.
But, regardless of how these people are sentenced, I am curious, Jessica, as to why [i]you[/i] believe they kill their children. I (and others) believe they do it because they are suffering from a specific mental illness which causes them to be delusional and unable to really determine right from wrong. I followed the Yates case and I remember her saying that she believed that by killing her children she was “saving” them. I remember a lot about religion and the devil and possession and things like that, which are along the lines of a psychotic illness. That’s a person whose mind is not in reality, which is different from a child molestor trying to rationalize his behavior, knowing it’s bad and harmful, but trying to make excuses for it. He’s in the here and now and knows he’s doing something to hurt someone else to serve his own purposes. That’s way different.
But, I’m curious as to why you think they do it? Or does it just not matter why, because you’re so sure that it could never happen to you (or a future daughter-in-law, or someone else you love) that you just don’t care, you want to see them suffer if they do.
22. Jessica said:
May 31, 2007 @ 5:02 pm | Quote
I saw a documentary that showed that Andrea Yates was a lot more clever and calculating that most people believe. Things like crying, only when she knew she was being filmed, and being totally composed otherwise. I think she was pissed at her husband and wanted to get back at him and I think she didn’t really like having children and she was overwhelmed by them and didn’t want to deal with them any longer. That’s what I think.
For me, it’s all about restitution on behalf of the innocent children, who are tossed aside in all of this compassion towards these brutal killers.
23. TomCat said:
May 31, 2007 @ 8:25 pm | Quote
Jessica,
There’s no such verdict as “innocent by reason of insanity” - not in Texas or any other state - which means you didn’t fact check any of this. Am I right? It also means that most of this stuff that looks like gibberish, probably is gibberish. Am I right? You started with a conclusion and worked backwards, making up facts as you went along and hoping they’d be correct, didn’t you?
Lame. Very, very lame. Even for a hysterical conservative blog, this is lame.
24. Jimmy Gatz said:
May 31, 2007 @ 8:56 pm | Quote
…it is a sad statement of the world in which we live in…
Needless to say, the sad statement is that so many folks think acknowleding mental illness is the same as surrendering and that similar, unjustafiable obsessions with administering ‘justice’ continue to fuel the conflicts these same folks support. It’s a mindset that equates the acknowledgment of any ‘gray’ areas in complex situations with weakness, too narrow to realize that a multi-faceted view on complex issues is possible, and necessary.
I hope enough people are finally getting sick of these atavistic opinions, ’cause if America hasn’t had enough ignorance by now, then I’m afraid we’re gonna be stuck with it forever, and I don’t think the planet can survive a terminally ignorant America that long.
25. Prescott said:
May 31, 2007 @ 8:59 pm | Quote
The Associated Press story initially used that language, not Jessica. I thought the AP was supposed to be doing the fact checking, as this is an opinion blog not a news outlet.
Of course it is correct to say “not guilty by reason of insanity”, but really, since the original phrase used is rather common in the public lexicon, we’re talking about some rather petty semantics.
And while we’re in the process of fact checking comments and bitching about accuracy:
a) Vicky — stats, please, that more men than women kill their own children? I’ve read it’s the other way around.
b) Andrea Yates was committed to be “held until she is no longer deemed a threat”, not for the rest of her life.
26. Jessica said:
May 31, 2007 @ 9:41 pm | Quote
Ironic that most of what I’m getting here is a bunch of ad hominen attacks on my character, based on what?…an editorial blog post?
Start your own blogs championing the likes of Andrea Yates and Dena Schlossar if your so insenced. None of your personal attacks are going to make me lose sleep over the well being of any of these brutal killers in question. (Ignorant American I am, focusing on what was taken from these babies and how much they suffered. I mean, what kind of person cares about what happened to the innocent children and what they’ve lost and who they were and wanting restitution on their behalf??)
And no, I don’t see cuting off an infants arms with a dull knife or chasing your kids down to drown them as “gray” issues. (Drowning is one of the painful deaths imaginable, BTW.) I don’t see things like pedophilia as a gray issue either. (Imagine that?!?) Sure I’ll own that. No problem. (Oh, wait, were you trying to insult me?)
27. TomCat said:
May 31, 2007 @ 10:44 pm | Quote
“Ad hominen”? You obviously don’t know what that means. You might want to look up “ironic” while you’re at it.
We’ve attacked your dreadful writing, your unsupportable reasoning (seriously, nothing you’ve said here makes a bit of sense), and your sloppy or nenexistent fact checking. How is that an ad hominem attack on your character? This piece is a mess.
Worst of all is that you think you are representing these children by forcing your twisted notions of justice onto them. “I am focusing on what was taken from these babies and how much they suffered … and wanting restitution on their behalf.” What a load. That’s disrespectful and just plain disgusting really.
28. TomCat said:
May 31, 2007 @ 10:53 pm | Quote
Prescott,
Re: fact checking - I don’t think any person who has been found legally insane during a capital murder trial has ever been released from a psych ward, and their court orders all had the same wording. So yes, it is, in effect, a life sentence.
29. Jessica said:
June 1, 2007 @ 7:13 am | Quote
TomCat, I’m just not going to respond to your personal attacks. Obviously something struck a chord that made you react so defensively.
30. Petulant Pixie said:
June 1, 2007 @ 8:20 am | Quote
Jessica, I just feel that your outrage towards these women (and not the system that failed them) is misdirected and socially harmful. Your anger at the women themselves is not helpful in any way. You also seem to have a misunderstanding of how the law works in cases of legal insanity or the conditions of mental institiutions, and that only makes your arguments have less merit.
I know that post partum psychosis exists. I’ve seen patients exhbiting symptoms with my own eyes. Educated, well informed women who are GOOD MOTHERS have given testimony upon testimony of their own accounts with the condition. But, these women, unlike Yates, have support of thier families and medical community who intervene before there is a tragedy.
It is a horror that this happens, but your anger is misdirected by blaming only the women. We as a society have failed them, and more specifically, their husbands, parents, siblings, in-laws, neighbors and medical specialists have failed them and their dead children. This is a treatable condition, but that it is ever gone untreated and these horrors are allowed to happen is the real tragedy. Punishing after the fact does nothing, but educating and offering support can actually prevent another one of these cases.