Home births, natural or foolish?
Posted
October 22, 2006 at
10:29 am by
Jessica
I stumbled upon a story this morning about a woman who chose to give birth in her Sydney Australia home and within minutes of giving birth, the outer body, beautiful and natural experience became seriously life threatening. The baby was also under severe duress while the mother lay bleeding to death. The midwife called in the emergency and a medevac helicopter arrived, taking 30 minutes to stabilize the pair and flew them to the nearest hospital where they are both doing fine after proactive medical intervention.
It leaves me to wonder, this small, yet growing sub-culture that engages in hating medical intervention (a sub-culture that has become so self-loathing and hateful towards progress itself or “intervention”), isn’t it selfish to denounce the medical community, only to call upon it to save one’s life when it’s needed? It’s one thing if one’s life is in danger dure to an accident, but is it wrong to secretly wish this woman gets a $25,000 bill for the medivac, as I secrety do (which I’m sure is only a fraction of the cost)? After all, valuable resources were taken away for a knowingly risky choice. In my opinion, she knowingly put her and her baby in harms way.
A Physician wrote about his thoughts on the matter in this letter to the editor of The Border Mail in Australia:
I REPLY to the letter from Janet Fraser, national convenor Joyous Birth (The Border Mail September16), which demonstrates perfectly the misinformation this minority group puts forward as “evidence-based” facts.
This group has some dangerous ideas, convincing anxious expectant mothers that a home birth is safe.
The evidence-based facts are that it is at least three times more dangerous to have a baby born at home than in a hospital, because when something does go wrong, often without warning as in about 30 per cent of all births, there is not the expertise and immediate assistance from a team of professionals, including midwives, obstetricians, paediatricians and anaesthetists.
None of the obstetricians in Albury-Wodonga support home birth, and no sensible experienced midwife would agree to deliver a woman at home when the alternative is to offer a safe delivery in hospital with immediate support available.
When a person works for 35 years doing high-risk obstetrics, seeing perfectly healthy women suddenly have a complication that is a risk to their lives as well as their baby, is it any wonder that I feel saddened by the ignorance of home birth groups which are trying to take us back to the dark ages.
The data measured by the Victorian Government proves the Wodonga obstetric team has one of the best outcomes for women and their babies.
Rural women and the dedicated team of midwives and doctors do not need to be insulted by a city based group of ideologists, telling us what is safe in our environment.
— DR PIETER MOURIK,
Wodonga
Admittedly, it is difficult to get accurate data. Those opposed to home births often cite a much higher risk than those that support it, although even in home birthing organizations, I have read that home birthing is safe in about 90% of the cases (and given they have an agenda, I take that percentage with a grain of salt).
The most common argument for homebirth is that of the feminist who believes that the male dominated medical community is trying to suppress women and rip their babies out of them to establish their dominance and to demean women. I say this is a major crock. There are plenty of female gyne’s out there and to assume that male doctors generally have a hatred of women is paranoid and delusional. Their job is keep you and your baby healthy and while some misjudgements can and do occur (nobody’s infallible), I cannot buy that it is all part of a vast conspiracy to keep women down. In fact, I think women are so self-absorbed with their own victimization, that they lack reason sometimes. I’m sure there are some male doctors that hate women, I’m sure there are a lot of female doctors that hate men, but all of them love their paychecks and common sense would dictate that they put their personal feelings aside to thwart off malpractice suits.
Generally, I think those that choose to become physicians, do so because they’re smart enough, have a “God-complex” and want to make a lot of money. The way to do that, is to be a good doctor and minimize mistakes. I actually would rather have a doctor with a “God-complex” than an indecisive ninny that based his or her decisions on political correctness or sappy emotional baggage.
Another point to consider is that many midwives are practising without licenses and the more disturbing trend, the one of “unassisted” birth where no person of expertise or birthing experience is present, except one’s family, only furthers concern. In some states, unlicensed midwives are being prosecuted, and why shouldn’t they be? The New York times reports:
Midwives see it differently. They say the ability of women to choose to give birth at home is under assault from a medical establishment dominated by men who, for reasons of money and status, resent a centuries-old tradition that long ago anticipated the concerns of modern feminism.
Chloe Hendrix-Petry’s birth has not given rise to criminal charges, but a prosecution against another midwife, Jennifer Williams, is pending in Shelbyville, Ind. It was prompted by the death of a baby named Oliver Meredith that Ms. Williams delivered in June. But she is not charged with causing or contributing to Oliver’s death.
Instead, to hear the county prosecutor tell it, the case against Ms. Williams is not unlike one against a trucker caught driving without a license. Read the rest…
Unlicensed midwives, like other unlicensed individuals acting under the guise of legitimacy, ought to be held to the same standards as anybody else. Nobody is above the law.
It is my opinion that people should be allowed to make their own choices, even foolish ones. My hope is that people are completely informed of the risks involved in home births and not just risking the lives of their babies for their own political agendas and hatred of progress that has done far more good and has extended millions of people’s lives. I feel that having a home birth is an unecessary risk that I wouldn’t want to be a part of, however, there are thousands of women who think otherwise and as empowering as they might think that makes them, I think it makes them just foolish people that got lucky.
Tags: feminists, home-birth, homebirth, midwives, natural-birth, Parenting, unassisted-birth |
118 Responses to “Home births, natural or foolish?”
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61. Freebirther said:
December 2, 2006 @ 5:26 pm
And, to clarify, I meant I’m not interested in feminism, as in because I’m a SAHM. Most feminists won’t even look my way :P~
62. Amy Tuteur, MD said:
December 2, 2006 @ 5:33 pm
Freebirther:
“This isn’t the developing world, so that’s quite irrelevent.”
Wrong again. This is what birth in “nature” looks like. The causes of death within the first 24 hours (as opposed to later) have nothing to do with sanitary conditions or malnutrition, they are almost completely birth related events such as eclampsia, obstructed labor, prematurity, etc.
However, if you’d like specific information about the US, I have that too. According to the CDC, of the top 13 causes of death within the entire first year, 12 are related to birth. Only SIDS is not. Indeed, birth related causes account for 75% of deaths in the first year of life.
63. Kris said:
December 2, 2006 @ 5:37 pm
Jessica:
It is definitely about what a person believes AND Science.
As for the ‘Agenda Statement’, you could very well say the medical community/establishment has just as much as an agenda as the community of homebirthers
64. Amy Tuteur, MD said:
December 2, 2006 @ 5:43 pm
Freebirther:
“Medicine and technology have had a positive influence on the outcome of childbirth and mortality rates; I agree. However, I think other facts have had much more profound influences over those things.”
You may believe other factors are responsible, but that’s not what the evidence shows.
In the early decades of the 1900’s (before widespread availability of modern obstetrics) the primary causes of neonatal mortality were prematurity 48%, birth injuries 15%, and congenital anomalies 10%. It’s difficult to see how factors other than modern obstetrics could have lowered the death rates from prematurity, birth injuries or congenital anomalies.
65. Freebirther said:
December 2, 2006 @ 5:43 pm
Birth in nature and nature are two different things. When I’m birthing in my home, I’m not birthing in nature. If I went into the forest, maybe then I’d be birthing in nature.
No one knows the cause of preeclampsia (the precursor to eclampsia) or premature labor (though there are many things, such as smoking, that are linked to it). Obstructed labor, like those first two, can be treated rather efficiently in the hospital. There are times when OB and hospital care are necessary. Some conditions, such as preeclampsia, can be determined in advance, just as it is possible for one to know when birth begins that their labor is premature and go to the hospital. Planning a birth at home, in most cases, doesn’t mean that a person will not or cannot get to the hospital and in time. Obstructed labor can be dealt with at home either by a midwife or the birthing woman if she has made adequate preparations, and many midwives (though not all) can manage preeclampsia & gestational diabetes. I’m not talking about women with preeclampsia who chose to birth at home or who go into labor prematurely and stay home, though. I am talking about the average low-risk patient chosing to birth at home and her chances of having a safe, wonderful experience if she makes preparations and leads a healthy lifestyle.
I’d like to see what the 12 causes of death are and proof that 1) they are birth-related and 2) that the birth situations were unmanageable at home.
66. Kris said:
December 2, 2006 @ 5:48 pm
Also, interesting, and quite disturbing, #14 is Assault, According to the CDC.
67. Freebirther said:
December 2, 2006 @ 5:50 pm
Show me this evidence that proves other factors haven’t had bigger effectss on birth outcome. I must have missed it.
I hate to break it to you, but women did often birth in the hospital in the early 1900s and with medical intervention that was already routine.
Premature birth has nothing to do with the safety of homebirth, as most homebirthers know when they are due and would go to the hospital if they went into labor prematurely.
Did you know that birth injuries are often caused by medical intervention? My friend’s daughter was born with a nice bruise on her face from the forceps. If she had been allowed to birth squatting that intervention might not have been necessary.
Yes, modern obstetrics did lower the death rates from prematurity, birth injuries, & congenital anomolies. Very good! However, when I talk about the safety of homebirth, I mean for low-risk patients who aren’t delivering prematurely or carrying a child with a congenital anomoly. The percentages by which those deaths have decreased are indeed high, but when you look at how often those things occur (not the deaths, the conditions themselves), you find that they are pretty rare and thus, IMO, not evidence that homebirth is unsafe. Even in the hospital babies with congenital anomlies still has low odds of survival…and to be honest, a 15% drop in the occurance of death from somethng isn’t really a huge number.
68. Freebirther said:
December 2, 2006 @ 5:50 pm
That is indeed sad, Kris.
69. Amy Tuteur, MD said:
December 2, 2006 @ 6:02 pm
Freebirther:
“However, when I talk about the safety of homebirth, I mean for low-risk patients who aren’t delivering prematurely or carrying a child with a congenital anomoly.”
Well, then you’ll want to know that virtually every study done to date shows an excess rate of preventable neonatal death at homebirth of 1-2/1000 compared to hospital birth. So, even for the lowest of the low risk women, hospital birth is safer.
I am well aware that some authors claim that their studies show that homebirth has a lower death rate than hospital birth, but that is ONLY because they compare the homebirth neonatal death rate to the average neonatal death rate (including high risk), not to the neonatal death rate for low risk white women.
70. Jessica said:
December 2, 2006 @ 6:10 pm
[quote comment="10936"]
As for the ‘Agenda Statement’, you could very well say the medical community/establishment has just as much as an agenda as the community of homebirthers[/quote]
I guess you can say that the medical establishment puts forth the agenda to save lives. What’s your point?
71. earthshoes said:
December 2, 2006 @ 6:18 pm
Dear Doctor when-the shoe-fits(Amy et al).
For finding the cure for diseases–thank you. For helping us when we need you (when births are not “normal”) thank you. For being there for the emergencies, when our children jump from high places or imbibe non-food items, thank you. For sharing your wisdom with us when it is indeed wisdom and not about control or the bottom line–thank you. And if you are responsible for us all eating better–thank you. And if you are responsible for us all learning to wash our hands–thank you. You are good high-tech auto-mechanics–you fix broken things and catch the clinks before they become clunks-bangs. That’s your job and we are grateful for you.
But as a group–for your misinformation, your paranoia, for lying to us so that you can maintain control of the outcome our births so that you don’t have to come in at two in the morning(and don’t think we don’t know what’s going on there) or so you don’t miss a round of golf, or so that you can use your newest toys or medications (kick backs anyone?), or so you can charge our insurance companies more or avoid malpractice suits, and for your unwillingness to give the patient a say in their own birth outcomes because it’s less convenient for you or might mean that you give up some small amount of control, for the constant messages that women as a population do not have the wisdom to know what’s best for themselves and their unborn children or the capacity to educate themselves and make those choices–we are an ungrateful lot and will remain that way. It would be best if you treated us less like automobiles in this respect and more like organic, spiritual beings who might know more than you do about a few things. By the way if no one’s told you this yet–you are not god. Hope that doesn’t come as a shock to your systems.
As a “retired” homebirther I am amused to find this debate as hot a topic now as it was when I first started having children sixteen years ago and that the primary naysayers are the same group that was bellowing back then–the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecology and their equally well-informed disciples. It is no surprise that the group with the most to lose-is fighting the hardest for control.
I do have a link on hand of a 2005 study that confirms what most experienced home birthers already know. Thought you’d like to see it.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/330/7505/1416
It looks to be fairly well balanced and thoughtful.
I am also very amused to find Dr. Amy Tutuer’s name splashed all across the internet, maintaining what looks to me like several debates at a time as well as maintaining her own site with an “Ask Dr. Amy” page as well as debates on her own blog. I too am the mother of four (homeschooler, writer, 1/2 para-professional educator)– and I do wonder where does she find the time?) As she seems to be at the core of many of many homebirth debates, I wonder at the agenda of someone who is far more interested in inciting than helping (or maybe she really doesn’t understand what she’s doing). And I find her tendency to resort to picking apart semantics when her statistics fail her even more amusing and a little sad.
Dr Amy, I would suggest you put all that energy into another book, perhaps focusing on why giving birth within hospitals is the better thing, publish it and get on with your life as a mother and doctor. You’re not likely to change our minds or those who follow our example–if they are truly considering homebirth as an option, they are already suspicious of medical establishment which you represent–if anything you’re only demonstrating to our segment of the population that you do not understand us or what drove homebirthers away in the first place.
Taking her own advice now and getting on with her own writing,
earthshoes
72. Jessica Carlson said:
December 2, 2006 @ 6:46 pm
This conjecture only proves my point that the homebirthing movement bases their decisions on ideology rather than science. What more is there to argue?
73. Freebirther said:
December 2, 2006 @ 7:42 pm
“Well, then you’ll want to know that virtually every study done to date shows an excess rate of preventable neonatal death at homebirth of 1-2/1000 compared to hospital birth. So, even for the lowest of the low risk women, hospital birth is safer.
I am well aware that some authors claim that their studies show that homebirth has a lower death rate than hospital birth, but that is ONLY because they compare the homebirth neonatal death rate to the average neonatal death rate (including high risk), not to the neonatal death rate for low risk white women.”
Well, Mr. Doctor, I have seen several studies that show the exact opposite result, and the studies did not do as you claim. They instead took those factors into consideration and broke it down to show low-risk vs high-risk neonatal death rate for hospital and home birth. Perhaps some studies compare homebirth neonatal death rate to the average one including home risk, perhaps even include homebirths resulting in hospital deaths in the hospital death rate. However, I have seen many studies done that were quite legitimate, kept the variables controlled, and did consider those things. I have seen, however, many pro-hospital studies done that have the same flaws you are pointing out about pro-homebirth studies. (How predictable; figured you wouldn’t use the same scrutiny!)
74. Freebirther said:
December 2, 2006 @ 7:43 pm
Saving lives isn’t the medical establishment’s only agenda. They also wish to maintain credibility, avoid lawsuits, and make money. Or are they working pro bono (sp?) now and exempt from being sued…?
75. Freebirther said:
December 2, 2006 @ 7:46 pm
Earthshoes…all I can say is bravo! *standing ovation, prolonged applause* Encore! That was extremely well-written and perfectly put. Unfortunately she will no doubt respond attempting to discredit the study you have posted.
Great post, I totally agree!!!
“This conjecture only proves my point that the homebirthing movement bases their decisions on ideology rather than science.”
No, Jessica, that proves that we base them on both, as that is our ideology BECAUSE of science.
76. Freebirther said:
December 2, 2006 @ 7:53 pm
You also need to realize that not every homebirther has the same reasons for chosing home birth and that one, or a few, do it because of idealogy doesn’t mean everyone choses it for that same ideology. I happened to chose it because, scientifically, I believe it is safer as well as the fact that it fits into my ideology. Some do it just for the ideology, and some just for the science. Some for a combination of factors, and some simply for religion and the belief that faith should be blind. Lumping all homebirthers into one group because of earthshoes’ statements would be like me lumping everyone who is anti-homebirth into the same category based on your statements. Would it be right to say all hospital birthers think homebirth is unsafe or that all homebirthers are foolish, simply because you believe that? None of us have been elected to represent any one group of people. We speak for ourselves.
77. Jessica Carlson said:
December 2, 2006 @ 8:18 pm
You’re right, I agree. It’s ideology based on junk science.
78. Freebirther said:
December 2, 2006 @ 8:35 pm
Wow. Is there no end to your rudeness? Your lack of maturity and your ignorance, despite your age, continues to astound me with every post. Your complete unwillingness to provide any proof of your many judgements and your negative statements just makes you seem less credible with every word I read, so you’ll have to excuse me if I take your analysis of our science, judgement of our ideology and reasons for our choices, and opinions of our decisions with a grain of salt.
I happen to think your ideology is based on junk scienece and evidence that, from my point of view, doesn’t even exist as you have yet to show any proof…only unfounded statements, devoid of any documentation. You have yet to show valid proof for any of your claims. You offer one homebirther’s stance as proof that homebirthers as a group are functioning on a certain ideology, as if the view of one must represent the view of all. I don’t even have to explain how completely flawed that is; either you know, or you’re too ignorant to know.
I’m almost ready to walk away. :/ I’m interested in intelligent debate, not the childish name-calling and “It’s true because I said so” arguments of elementary school.
79. Freebirther said:
December 2, 2006 @ 8:42 pm
I, too, am wondering when Dr. Amy has time to practice obstetrics while participating in so many debates, maintaining a blog, running a website, & raising children. This mama barely has time to write a daily journal entry or take a bath alone, much less practice gynecology! I imagine I might have time to do so if my son were in daycare, but I don’t see how I would work as much as doctors usually do and still have time to come home, play mother, cook, clean, and then log on to the internet to debate, blog, and answer questions from patients. You are one amazing woman and must be incredible at managing your time, and while I do admire you for that, the rest of what earthshoes says about you pretty much reflects my opinion as well. I definitely agree that you should write another book, rather than trying to sway the minds of people who will probably never agree with you.
80. Prescott said:
December 2, 2006 @ 9:08 pm
[quote comment="10972"]Your complete unwillingness to provide any proof of your many judgements and your negative statements just makes you seem less credible with every word I read, so you’ll have to excuse me if I take your analysis of our science, judgement of our ideology and reasons for our choices, and opinions of our decisions with a grain of salt.[/quote]
You’ll have to excuse me if I think your complete lack of understanding regarding calculating statistics make me take the basis for your ideology with a truckload of salt.
For what it’s worth, I don’t care if you give birth on the moon. It’s when you position your personal choice as “safer” or “better” (logically implying that those that choose otherwise are putting their babies at risk or not choosing the best for their babies) instead of “different” is when I start to get irritated.
I’m amazed that nobody seems to have the goddamn guts to just say that yes, some studies show that maybe there is an increased risk in home birth, but the risks are statistically small enough that it doesn’t outweigh the perceived benefits. Holy shit, would I have so much respect for that person, and this debate would be over for me.
But that will never happen, since that would crumble so many other tenets of “natural parenting” that you would rather wrap yourself in questionable studies and dogma.
Go ahead and walk away. The reason it’s resorting to what you perceive as name calling is the frustration with the fact that you’re not interested in intelligent debate at all. People here are trying to engage you in one and you’re ignoring it with your cries for, “Proof! Give me proof!” Why? You gave a position that home birth is safer than hospital delivery. Responses have been given that question if your reasoning for that position is incorrect. Is that not debate?
81. Freebirther said:
December 2, 2006 @ 9:18 pm
Yes, I must be a complete loon because I had a temporary moment of confusion about something simple. I suppose you’re a perfect person who has never had an experience like that. How many children do you have? You must do brain exercises or something to have never had one of those ‘dumb’ moments.’ Can you send some my way so I can benefit too?
I haven’t positioned my choice as safer or better for anyone except myself. I was responding, if you’ll notice, to the statement that another choice was safer or better than the one I’ve made.
That is exactly what I myself am saying. Yes, I know some studies show there’s an increased risk in homebirth, but I don’t think the risks outweigh the benefits. I also know that there are also studies that show there is an increased risk in hospital birth. I have seen the studies that show both and acknowled both, as you can tell if you’d like to read over my previous posts. I have stated repeatedly that I’m sure there are studies showing otherwise. There was one released quite recently that put the homebirth community in an uproar, and then another with the opposite conclusion released days later.
You have no idea what tenets of natural parenting I wrap myself in. You don’t know me, so don’t presume to judge me based on the fact that I hang out at MDC.
I haven’t said that I am going to walk away, only that I have been tempted to. I just had a nice laugh at your statement that the fact that you are resorting to name calling means that I am not interested in intelligent debate. Yes, because someone has called our science ‘junk’ and accused all homebirthers of birthing because of a political agenda, despite not having any real evidence to back that up, I’m the one who is not being ntelligent.
As for my cries for proof, that is how debate goes. You state your facts and provide your evidence, rather than expecting someone to believe something is true simply because you say it is. Yes, responses have question my reasoning, and I have answered–and shown at least some documentation, quite a bit more than what your side of the debate has shown (which is very little). However, I did NOT give a position that home birth is safer than hospital delivery as a general statement. I gave the statement that a woman is safest where she feels most comfortable, wherever that may be, and I could really care a less that it irritated you but it is not the statement you are accusing me of making. I agree with the statement that some babies who die in hospitals would have lived at home and some who died at home birth would have lived in hospitals. I am sorry that you are too inexperienced with debates to understand that they are not an exchange of unfounded opinions and accusations, but an exchange of opinions and conclusions based upon facts and evidence. Putting words in my mouth and complaining about my requesting some proof to back up your ridiculous claims is not how intelligent debate works.
82. Prescott said:
December 2, 2006 @ 9:19 pm
[quote comment="10976"]I definitely agree that you should write another book, rather than trying to sway the minds of people who will probably never agree with you.[/quote]
Oh, my, how did you know about my love of irony? Thanks for the early x-mas present!
83. Freebirther said:
December 2, 2006 @ 9:22 pm
You know what makes me laugh? It is just like hospital birthing advocates, who seem to idolize doctors and the medical community and blindly obey their command, to insinuate that if a person asks for proofs of someone’s claims, they must not be intelligent. I happen to think not being a sheep who faithfully follows is an intelligent choice. That you don’t agree really doesn’t bother me, especially with your track record of judging me without knowing me.
Why should you give me proof? To establish that you are telling the truth, to back up your claims, and to truly discredit what I have said and show without a doubt that it is wrong. That is how a debate is won. Are you following George Bush’s example of debate protocol? :/
84. Freebirther said:
December 2, 2006 @ 9:23 pm
Irony? Were? Her writing a book doesn’t have to be an attempt to sway the minds of people who keep disagreeing with her; it can be a way of getting her opinions out into the open without forcing people to have to justify their personal choices to her, gaining approval from those who do agree with her, and putting another source out there for women trying to make up their minds about their birth experience.
85. Prescott said:
December 2, 2006 @ 9:25 pm
[quote comment="9051"]Most homebirthers feel that the home is a much safer, more comfortable environment in which to labor and give birth. The risk of unnecessary intervention is extremely low at home…. The home is much more sanitary, being that the hospital is for sick people, yet the bacteria and germs in the home are those which the mother lives with everyday and is accustomed to (as in immune)… The comfort factor alone makes homebirth safer, but there are statistics as well.[/quote]
86. Prescott said:
December 2, 2006 @ 9:31 pm
[quote comment="10992"]Irony? Were? [sic][/quote]
How about the fact that a self-declared advocate is admonishing someone else for trying to inform and change people’s minds?
87. Freebirther said:
December 2, 2006 @ 9:32 pm
You’ll notice that I started out with “most homebirthers feel.” I thought that would make it very clear that the statements I was making are that which most homebirthers feel, as with the first sentence, is safer for them. Again, you can keep inferring what you want, putting words into my mouth, and trying to twist my statements to mean something other than what I’ve repeatedly said they mean, but it is not going to get you anywhere. While it may please your comrades, it makes you look foolish to your opponents. Go on if you like though. I’m having a chuckle at it.
88. Freebirther said:
December 2, 2006 @ 9:35 pm
I’m not admonishing her for that. I’m admonishing her for exaggerating to make her point and for the way in which she goes about it, such as going to people’s private blogs and webpages to engage them in debate–when they’d probably much rather be peacefully recording their thoughts and feelings, going about their life without having to justify their actions. I, as an advocate of it, support people who chose to homebirth, notify people that it is an option, correct people who present misinformation about it, and practice it myself. I do not go around to people’s private blogs trying to convince them and forcing them to justify their hospital birth, then ridicule them on my blog, nor do I use exaggerations to attempt to sway people’s minds.
89. Prescott said:
December 2, 2006 @ 9:51 pm
I find it interesting that by my directly quoting you I’m being accused of putting words in your mouth.
You erased the “I feel” part of your argument when you insisted that you had statistics to back you up. At that point, you made the assertion that science proves what you were saying, and therefore makes your personal choice the “right choice”. I’m getting a chuckle over your detachment from reality and obtuseness to that fact.
You don’t know me either, otherwise you would know that I’m still participating solely for the entertainment value and to see what strange twist will come out of your mouth next.
As for your assertions about Dr. Amy, that’s where you lost me — I have better things to do than Google and cyber-stalk someone to determine where else they blog and post, so I have no idea what you are talking about.
90. Freebirther said:
December 2, 2006 @ 9:56 pm
By insinuating that my words meant what you want them to mean and infer, rather than what I meant, you are putting words in my mouth.
The “I feel” part of my argument had little to do with the statistics I showed. What statistics did I show that had to do with comfort? None. Do you not realize that statistics can reinforce or determine the way a person feels? Do you not realize that two people can see the same statistics and interpret them differently based on your feelings?
I asserted no such thing; those are, again, your words. I have continually repeated that I think a woman should birth where she feels most comfortable and that I don’t feel the hospital is safer because of the evidence I’ve seen to clarify that I don’t think either choice is right. Continue accusing me of what I never said, or using words against me that were elaborated on a few posts later even before you began trying to turn them against me (which, again, by the way, isn’t a great way to win a debate).
I don’t need to know you or why you’re participating; I could care a less, but for the record, I’m responding to you and reading your posts out of a similar curiosity and thirst for entertainment making us even.
I didn’t Google or cyberstalk anyone, sweety. I just clicked the link where her name is. I didn’t know that clicking someone’s name when it is a link, then reading the page that comes up, was cyberstalking. Gosh, now I am realizing that I am just an evil cyberstalker with no life, a hypocrit who contradicts myself by stating what I feel and then listing statistics as evidence that it is a justifiable way to feel and a valid choice. I feel just awful about myself.